There are no spider gears (no differential action) between the front wheels and the rears, other than the viscous coupler. The drive to the back wheels comes off the front differential. It has 2 rings gears. One meshes with the countershaft in the transmisssion just like a FWD Honda and the other "outputs" power to another shaft that runs out to the bevel gears in the transfer case. There's 1 bevel gear that meshes with another bevel gear, simply to turn the drive 90 degrees to go out the driveshaft to the back wheels.
Today I disassembled a RT4wd viscous coupler that was no good not working at all. it came out of my blue wagon!! I will post some detailed pic's for you guys very shortly.....
I may have a rebuild solution coming the this thing............
Today I disassembled a RT4wd viscous coupler that was no good not working at all. it came out of my blue wagon!! I will post some detailed pic's for you guys very shortly.....
I may have a rebuild solution coming the this thing............
Viscous coupling is a one mechanical device, Viscous coupling Device transfers torque and rotation by the medium of a viscous fluid. Viscous Coupler device essentially differs from fluid couplings such as torque converters.
Viscous coupling is a one mechanical device, Viscous coupling Device transfers torque and rotation by the medium of a viscous fluid. Viscous Coupler device essentially differs from fluid couplings such as torque converters.
Are there spider/differential gears "between" the FWD portion of the transmission and the transfer-case portion? If there are, then creating a one-piece driveshaft or somehow locking the VC together will not cause a failure when driving on pavement. The spider gears will allow the rear wheels to turn at different speeds than the front. This is how most normal 4x4s work that have "full-time 4wd". It will likely decrease MPG, however.
exactly what i was thinking
are you able to make virtually a viscous coupler delete?
are you able to make virtually a viscous coupler delete?
For off-road use only, you could delete the viscous coupler (bolt it together, or a custom one-piece driveshaft). There will be enough tire slippage on non-prepared surfaces to prevent damage. It would be just like running a Jeep in Part-Time 4x4 mode.
Disengaging the transfer-case so the transmission runs in FWD mode would still allow this setup to function on pavement. Rigging up some way to engage and disengage the transmission easily from inside the cab would let this setup act like most "normal" 4wd vehicles.
The 1984-87 4WD Wagons (I don't think they were RT) had a push button on the dash for engaging/disengaging the 4WD. It operated an actuator that moved the same lever on the transmission as we manually operate on the 1988-1991 version.
Does anyone have a picture or information as to the 3rd generation 4wd actuator and it's location? I have (3 ) 1988 RT's and ( 1 ) 1985 4wd civic, at the moment they are all buried in snow. I have the complete factory manual set for the 88's but nothing on the 85. If someone could point me in the right direction to obtain any info on the manual selector switch it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
OK, sooo, question; when looking at a b series swap you cant keep the rt rear dif due to a difference in ratio, creating the rear wheels to spin faster than they would with a crv dif.
My question is what if you put a crv dif (I know that it is weaker then the rt dif but for the sake of arguement) in with the stock rt trans, transfer and vc.... this would in theory create a vc preload correct?
OK, sooo, question; when looking at a b series swap you cant keep the rt rear dif due to a difference in ratio, creating the rear wheels to spin faster than they would with a crv dif.
My question is what if you put a crv dif (I know that it is weaker then the rt dif but for the sake of arguement) in with the stock rt trans, transfer and vc.... this would in theory create a vc preload correct?
couple things...if your talking B-series swap...then you cant keep the RT trans/transfer because its d-series. so if you want b-series, then swap in the b20 trans/transfer, run a modified RT driveline with VC, and RT rear end. at that point, the rear wheels will be overdriven and be putting a pre-load on the VC (getting it hot as fuuuu and potential for failure) Epic Tuning's EG coupe (600whp, 10 sec car, on 195 street tires lol) has a setup just like that and they run a tire that is .2" taller in the front to achieve a 50/50 split.
so on a wagon, keeping the rear end, VC, is most beneficial...as far as the rear ends and their strength.....i personally am not going to worry about it. the transfer case will be the first item in the system to fail (splitting the case) on either the RT or CRV trans. its been proven time and time again that the rear end is capable of holding some HP (even in full RWD...and even then, the axles are the weak link before the diff)
i also dont think that welding the VC would be a good idea either...the beauty of the system is the slip. unless your going to go rock crawling, i cant see the need for full time (or even part time) locked 4wd. my 04 Pilot can lock the rear diff and i cannot notice the difference between locked and unlocked on slippery surfaces. i have YET to run into a situation where i the VTM4 was failing and i needed to lock the rear. (i must say though...the pilot is kind of apples to oranges, because of its ability to transfer 100% tq to 1 wheel....thats where an open diff car would suffer.....BUT if you locked the VC, the rear diff is still open...so thats a moot point really....but for conversation sake i threw that in lol)
i know this is a wagon forum....but on my CRV this is what i plan to do
b20 5spd trans, custom 2 piece driveline with wagon VC, welded TCD unit (dual pump clutch unit on front of the rear diff...replacement of the VC) and stock crv rear end with welded diff (or phantom slip if welded diff proves to be too much stress on a DD...in "theory" it should be fine to DD because the rear is only in use when front wheels slip....normal driving, or parking, or slow speed turning, shouldnt be enough wheel speed difference to engage the rear wheels)
best of everything IMO (outside of a true LSD in the rear....i have yet to find someone thats retro-fitted an LSD into a crv rear end though) b-series motor/trans, instant, and FULL locking VC (instead of clutchs that never fully lock in the TCD unit) and a rear end that puts power to both wheels equally, ONLY when engaged.
so for a
d-series RT4WD...straight up wagon stuff is best.
b-series RT4WD...b20 trans/transfer, VC, welded TCD, stock or welded diff. (crv diff would be ideal, wagon diff would require tire offsets)
i also dont think that welding the VC would be a good idea either...the beauty of the system is the slip. unless your going to go rock crawling, i cant see the need for full time (or even part time) locked 4wd. my 04 Pilot can lock the rear diff and i cannot notice the difference between locked and unlocked on slippery surfaces. i have YET to run into a situation where i the VTM4 was failing and i needed to lock the rear. (i must say though...the pilot is kind of apples to oranges, because of its ability to transfer 100% tq to 1 wheel....thats where an open diff car would suffer.....BUT if you locked the VC, the rear diff is still open...so thats a moot point really....but for conversation sake i threw that in lol)
i know this is a wagon forum....but on my CRV this is what i plan to do
b20 5spd trans, custom 2 piece driveline with wagon VC, welded TCD unit (dual pump clutch unit on front of the rear diff...replacement of the VC) and stock crv rear end with welded diff (or phantom slip if welded diff proves to be too much stress on a DD...in "theory" it should be fine to DD because the rear is only in use when front wheels slip....normal driving, or parking, or slow speed turning, shouldnt be enough wheel speed difference to engage the rear wheels)
best of everything IMO (outside of a true LSD in the rear....i have yet to find someone thats retro-fitted an LSD into a crv rear end though) b-series motor/trans, instant, and FULL locking VC (instead of clutchs that never fully lock in the TCD unit) and a rear end that puts power to both wheels equally, ONLY when engaged.
so for a
d-series RT4WD...straight up wagon stuff is best.
b-series RT4WD...b20 trans/transfer, VC, welded TCD, stock or welded diff. (crv diff would be ideal, wagon diff would require tire offsets)
just my .02!
You would still cause considerable stress on a welded rear diff in 2wd mode. The rear diff allows the rear tires to turn at differing speeds to each other, even when coasting, and welding will cancel that. One or the other of the tires will drag or chirp in a turn as they try to match speeds. It would probably be worse than if there was power applied to them as that would at least allow the inside tire to break traction more easily.
You can find LSDs for the Wagons rear diff (would love to see one built for the front, too).
You won't actually find LSDs specifically for the Wagon rear diff. What you'll find is people (me and Turbo Teg) that have modified LSDs for FWD 92-00 Civics and fit them into the Wagon rear diff housing. Do a search. All the info is here.
You would still cause considerable stress on a welded rear diff in 2wd mode. The rear diff allows the rear tires to turn at differing speeds to each other, even when coasting, and welding will cancel that. One or the other of the tires will drag or chirp in a turn as they try to match speeds. It would probably be worse than if there was power applied to them as that would at least allow the inside tire to break traction more easily.
You can find LSDs for the Wagons rear diff (would love to see one built for the front, too).
im not sure if your familiar with Epic Tuning...they have a new civic coupe (to replace their old EF if your familiar) with 607whp turbo ls/vtec, stock crv trans, welded wagon VC, welded wagon diff. here is what he says in regards to how it handles.
Yes the car hates going around corners...slowly.. but at speed it is amazing how well mannered it is.
i've ridden in drift cars with welded diffs....outside of parking lots, you really cant tell. and even when its skipping, its still not that bad IMO. people might look at you funny but meh, lol. if all goes well ($$$ permitting) i will be able to do the VC mod for sure....and have a stock and welded crv diff to compare the 2. time will tell.
I've been looking into the b-series 4wd swap (although i'm not planning to do it anytime soon) because I wanted to see if it was possible to just swap in a b series motor with the the manual 4wd crv tranny and keep everything else oem wagon.I looked at the Final drive ratios for the 4wd A/T wagon compared to the manual and noticed that they different. Manual is 4.428 while, the auto is 4.333. If the differential is the same for both manual and Auto, which I believe it is. Does that mean that its okay to run the CRV transmission without having to switch to the CRV rear end?
I also looked it up for the CRV also and notice the manual and autos also had different ratios while running the same rear end unit.
the ratio that the driveshaft is turned (in relation to the front wheels) is determined by the 2nd ring gear on the differential in the transmission. so now the drive shaft is turning at a certain ratio....and that is spinning the rear differential, the rear differential turns the rear axles at a ratio determined by the ring gear on the rear differential. since the ratio in the rear ends is different between wagon and crv, the rear wheels will be turning at a different rate than the front wheels when using a crv trans and wagon rear end. the Epic Tuning car i was refering to above encountered such problems and their solution was to run a tire that was .2" taller in the front to offset the ratio differences.
I understand the concept that the front diff has two sets of gears. The final ring and pinion that drives the front, and the transfer ring and pinion that spins the propeller shaft.
In the case of the manual, Jaker described the revolutions of the front and rear wheels to be not exactly the same, but very close. However, what I was trying to understand is in the case of the automatic where the front final drive for the front wheels is 4.333... the rear end is still is at 4.4, this means the front and rear differential ratios don't have to be the same right and it can still work right?
However in this case, the transfer gear set is geared to rotate the side of the propeller shaft connected transmission side, close to that of the speed of the rear diff side in order to eliminate the rotational differences in the viscous coupler. I think my next project is to find a junk crv tranny and open it up one of these days to look at the gears.
However, what I was trying to understand is in the case of the automatic where the front final drive for the front wheels is 4.333... the rear end is still is at 4.4, this means the front and rear differential ratios don't have to be the same right and it can still work right?
the transfer drive corrects the ratio's between the front and rear. its basically a reduction gear. (the 2nd ring gear on the front diff) the final drive drives the front wheels only. the reduction gear drives the prop shaft and subsequently the rear end. thats how they keep the rear end ratio's the same between auto/manual. the transfer drive gear is different between the auto and manual....same thing for CRV and Wagon. if you used a crv trans, and somehow used a Wagon transfer drive, with wagon rear end...it would work flawlessly. unfortunately as far as i know, its not possible.
So, based on what I have read in this thread, it seems that if the front end loses traction, and spins at least 5% faster than the rear, then the VC should engage the rear wheels, correct?
The reason I ask is, I just bought an RT4wd and had it out in the rain for the first time the other night. i was driving up an exit ramp with a very long right turn, under full power. I lost traction (fairly certain it was the right front) and i was just gently rocking the accelerator, hoping i would get some traction back. No luck, just revving up and down. It seemed like I was getting just a bit of understeer, but not nearly as much as i would in my FWD del sol. My question is, in this situation, and with a properly working VC, do both front wheels have to be spinning to engage the rear? Or will one wheel spinning be sufficient? Also, when the VC engages, would the front wheelspin be reduced at all or even eliminated? Or would front wheelspin continue with a fully locked VC?
I suspect my VC may be non-operational, but I don't know enough about how it SHOULD act to determine for sure, and I only have 2 jack stands so I can't do the VC test just yet.
Thanks for your help.
P.S. I swear I saw a D.I.Y. thread on here about rebuilding the VC... Gonna look for it now.
Mine would engage and disengage pretty much seamlessly depending on front wheel spin and it didn't matter which front wheel was spinning, I could detect an immeadiate change in handling when the VC "locked up", especially in deep snow.
Unfortunately I own three of the 1988 RT's and all of them have bad VC's and I haven't found any suggestions on how to repair, other than it is a non repairable item and a case of "too bad, so sad" from Honda.
Mine would engage and disengage pretty much seamlessly depending on front wheel spin and it didn't matter which front wheel was spinning, I could detect an immeadiate change in handling when the VC "locked up", especially in deep snow.
Unfortunately I own three of the 1988 RT's and all of them have bad VC's and I haven't found any suggestions on how to repair, other than it is a non repairable item and a case of "too bad, so sad" from Honda.
So, when it did lock up, did the front wheel(s) continue to spin just as much, a little bit less, or not at all?
Also I'm guessing that by "an immediate change in handling" you mean a significant reduction in understeer... right?
Yes, understeer corrected, direction of travel changed, traction, of course, was increased. Front wheel spin did decrease after rear wheels "kicked in" . When the VC system was working the little wagons could really hold their own in all kinds of road conditions. The main "stopper" for me was getting high centered, then it was all over but the shouting. By the way when the VC engaged there wasn't any noise or "clunking" sounds, it would engage due to the heat build up in the fluid separating the internal plates and then disengage when the fluid cooled.
Thanks for all the help and info. Yeah this car seems to handle very well, especially considering it has no suspension modifications at all, unless you include the Nitto Neo-gen's that came on the wheels i put on it. I have given the same exit ramp hell several times, and i never seemed to get any understeer until i tried it in the rain the other night. Of course, I'm not pushing it too hard, not on public streets. But definitely giving it as much as it takes to lose traction in my del sol with the exact same set of tires.
I'm thinking that the VC is either totally not working, and the car really does handle this well in 2wd... or maybe the VC is low on fluid, causing to have limited functionality. Or it could be totally gone, and the A6 motor just doesnt have the balls to break traction with the Neo-gen's on a dry road.
This may be redundant but have you checked to make sure the 4 wheel drive shift lever (towing disengage) is in the proper position for 4 wheel drive.? It is located on the top of the transmission (very hard to see, look slightly behind the distributor and down to the top of the tranny), there is a 10mm nut that you have to loosen (Caution: just a couple of turns) and then the other 10mm bolt can be turned to engage/disengage 4 wheel drive. Just a thought.
Comments
I may have a rebuild solution coming the this thing............
This makes me so very happy.
:shock:
exactly what i was thinking
are you able to make virtually a viscous coupler delete?
For off-road use only, you could delete the viscous coupler (bolt it together, or a custom one-piece driveshaft). There will be enough tire slippage on non-prepared surfaces to prevent damage. It would be just like running a Jeep in Part-Time 4x4 mode.
Disengaging the transfer-case so the transmission runs in FWD mode would still allow this setup to function on pavement. Rigging up some way to engage and disengage the transmission easily from inside the cab would let this setup act like most "normal" 4wd vehicles.
My question is what if you put a crv dif (I know that it is weaker then the rt dif but for the sake of arguement) in with the stock rt trans, transfer and vc.... this would in theory create a vc preload correct?
so on a wagon, keeping the rear end, VC, is most beneficial...as far as the rear ends and their strength.....i personally am not going to worry about it. the transfer case will be the first item in the system to fail (splitting the case) on either the RT or CRV trans. its been proven time and time again that the rear end is capable of holding some HP (even in full RWD...and even then, the axles are the weak link before the diff)
i also dont think that welding the VC would be a good idea either...the beauty of the system is the slip. unless your going to go rock crawling, i cant see the need for full time (or even part time) locked 4wd. my 04 Pilot can lock the rear diff and i cannot notice the difference between locked and unlocked on slippery surfaces. i have YET to run into a situation where i the VTM4 was failing and i needed to lock the rear. (i must say though...the pilot is kind of apples to oranges, because of its ability to transfer 100% tq to 1 wheel....thats where an open diff car would suffer.....BUT if you locked the VC, the rear diff is still open...so thats a moot point really....but for conversation sake i threw that in lol)
i know this is a wagon forum....but on my CRV this is what i plan to do
b20 5spd trans, custom 2 piece driveline with wagon VC, welded TCD unit (dual pump clutch unit on front of the rear diff...replacement of the VC) and stock crv rear end with welded diff (or phantom slip if welded diff proves to be too much stress on a DD...in "theory" it should be fine to DD because the rear is only in use when front wheels slip....normal driving, or parking, or slow speed turning, shouldnt be enough wheel speed difference to engage the rear wheels)
best of everything IMO (outside of a true LSD in the rear....i have yet to find someone thats retro-fitted an LSD into a crv rear end though) b-series motor/trans, instant, and FULL locking VC (instead of clutchs that never fully lock in the TCD unit) and a rear end that puts power to both wheels equally, ONLY when engaged.
so for a
d-series RT4WD...straight up wagon stuff is best.
b-series RT4WD...b20 trans/transfer, VC, welded TCD, stock or welded diff. (crv diff would be ideal, wagon diff would require tire offsets)
just my .02!
You would still cause considerable stress on a welded rear diff in 2wd mode. The rear diff allows the rear tires to turn at differing speeds to each other, even when coasting, and welding will cancel that. One or the other of the tires will drag or chirp in a turn as they try to match speeds. It would probably be worse than if there was power applied to them as that would at least allow the inside tire to break traction more easily.
You can find LSDs for the Wagons rear diff (would love to see one built for the front, too).
im not sure if your familiar with Epic Tuning...they have a new civic coupe (to replace their old EF if your familiar) with 607whp turbo ls/vtec, stock crv trans, welded wagon VC, welded wagon diff. here is what he says in regards to how it handles.
i've ridden in drift cars with welded diffs....outside of parking lots, you really cant tell. and even when its skipping, its still not that bad IMO. people might look at you funny but meh, lol. if all goes well ($$$ permitting) i will be able to do the VC mod for sure....and have a stock and welded crv diff to compare the 2. time will tell.
I've been looking into the b-series 4wd swap (although i'm not planning to do it anytime soon) because I wanted to see if it was possible to just swap in a b series motor with the the manual 4wd crv tranny and keep everything else oem wagon.I looked at the Final drive ratios for the 4wd A/T wagon compared to the manual and noticed that they different. Manual is 4.428 while, the auto is 4.333. If the differential is the same for both manual and Auto, which I believe it is. Does that mean that its okay to run the CRV transmission without having to switch to the CRV rear end?
I also looked it up for the CRV also and notice the manual and autos also had different ratios while running the same rear end unit.
I understand the concept that the front diff has two sets of gears. The final ring and pinion that drives the front, and the transfer ring and pinion that spins the propeller shaft.
In the case of the manual, Jaker described the revolutions of the front and rear wheels to be not exactly the same, but very close. However, what I was trying to understand is in the case of the automatic where the front final drive for the front wheels is 4.333... the rear end is still is at 4.4, this means the front and rear differential ratios don't have to be the same right and it can still work right?
However in this case, the transfer gear set is geared to rotate the side of the propeller shaft connected transmission side, close to that of the speed of the rear diff side in order to eliminate the rotational differences in the viscous coupler. I think my next project is to find a junk crv tranny and open it up one of these days to look at the gears.
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/aut ... FFERENTIAL
the transfer drive corrects the ratio's between the front and rear. its basically a reduction gear. (the 2nd ring gear on the front diff) the final drive drives the front wheels only. the reduction gear drives the prop shaft and subsequently the rear end. thats how they keep the rear end ratio's the same between auto/manual. the transfer drive gear is different between the auto and manual....same thing for CRV and Wagon. if you used a crv trans, and somehow used a Wagon transfer drive, with wagon rear end...it would work flawlessly. unfortunately as far as i know, its not possible.
The reason I ask is, I just bought an RT4wd and had it out in the rain for the first time the other night. i was driving up an exit ramp with a very long right turn, under full power. I lost traction (fairly certain it was the right front) and i was just gently rocking the accelerator, hoping i would get some traction back. No luck, just revving up and down. It seemed like I was getting just a bit of understeer, but not nearly as much as i would in my FWD del sol. My question is, in this situation, and with a properly working VC, do both front wheels have to be spinning to engage the rear? Or will one wheel spinning be sufficient? Also, when the VC engages, would the front wheelspin be reduced at all or even eliminated? Or would front wheelspin continue with a fully locked VC?
I suspect my VC may be non-operational, but I don't know enough about how it SHOULD act to determine for sure, and I only have 2 jack stands so I can't do the VC test just yet.
Thanks for your help.
P.S. I swear I saw a D.I.Y. thread on here about rebuilding the VC... Gonna look for it now.
Unfortunately I own three of the 1988 RT's and all of them have bad VC's and I haven't found any suggestions on how to repair, other than it is a non repairable item and a case of "too bad, so sad" from Honda.
Also I'm guessing that by "an immediate change in handling" you mean a significant reduction in understeer... right?
I'm thinking that the VC is either totally not working, and the car really does handle this well in 2wd... or maybe the VC is low on fluid, causing to have limited functionality. Or it could be totally gone, and the A6 motor just doesnt have the balls to break traction with the Neo-gen's on a dry road.