the block was scrubbed with ajax and wet red scotchbrite, cyl head is painted (base/clear)because it was so badly tarnished, as well as the intake manifold. Tranny in pic was just for mock up but correct tranny is also painted
I finally got my valve cover project done... My fabricator friend had it for about a month because he's been so busy, but it was with him getting a couple breather ports tig'd in, and getting a few holes filled shut to be shaved. Then I finished it out in Cadillac pearl white.
Ok, so the bad news is, there is no room for a turbo under the hood... the good news is that I knew from the beginning there wouldn't be room for a turbo under the hood and have been doing extensive research and gathering on an alternative setup. So as if an F2d swapped civic wagon wasn't weird/oddball enough, I'm building a remote mount turbo kit for it... There's no room under the hood for a turbo, but there sure is a lot of room where the old differential/driveshaft used to be! This is a shot of something similar on a cavalier... The company who exclusively builds these kits is called STS (www.ststurbo.com). The only STS part I used is the Oil pump which I found used because they wouldn't sell me one if I didn't buy their $3000+ kit..
So today I finished fabbing my new 2.5" exhaust built to accommodate the rear mount turbo. I still need to drop it off at my friends shop to have the welds finished, right now it is just tack welded together... I let the pro's do the serious welds. You can see my Tial 38mm bov already mounted towards the rear of the pipe.
The turbo oil feed is just like traditional, a small braided stainless line tapped into a T at the oil pressure sensor will send pressurized oil to the turbo.. Getting the oil back to the engine is the trick. With a remote setup a pump must be used to send the oil from the turbo back to the oil pan. This is the STS oil pump.
seems like a lot of piping to me. why put the turbo all the way at the back? you could have it more up front and still have lots of room. Hell you could even do a top mount with the right mani.
So how much longer will it take for you to get to full boost? I'm not doubting this system, just seems like a turbo is better served closer to the engine.
So how much longer will it take for you to get to full boost? I'm not doubting this system, just seems like a turbo is better served closer to the engine.
What about something like this:
Exhaust gas temperature plays more of a role than piping length. Heat wrap that bitch and don't try to 35R it and he'll be gravy.
There's been plenty of debates on why which is better than the other so I'll try to keep this minimal... I will start off by saying that YES, on a 4 cylinder engine it is optimal to have a setup as shown above vs. remote mount and you'll never hear me claim otherwise. But lets break it down to see how much better, because you'd be surprised.
Take a look at that sidemount manifold for instance, look at the length of each individual runner, say each runner is is roughly 16" longer than the runners of a factory 4-1 manifold, add up that 16+" x4, that manifold is pushing the exhaust 64+" before it reaches the turbo. Vs. my remote mount which has to travel roughly 76" of pipe to reach the turbo. Now if you were to add in a front mount intercooler to that setup, eyeball measure the length of pipe it would take to go from that turbo outlet to the front bumper, + the length of a fmic, + the length of pipe back to the throttle body. To give it the benefit of the doubt I'd say you'd have about 84" of piping. Vs. my setup of having about 88". Having the turbo in the back will lower the temp. of the turbo about 500 degrees, that along with the charge pipe being fully exposed to passing ambient air negates the need for an intercooler. A pretty nice benefit is that there will only be about 24" of pipe from the turbo to the back of the car, essentially always running "open downpipe" where the setup shown above would need about 120" of expensive 3" exhaust running from the turbo to the rear of the vehicle. As far as boost lag, there is just as much exhaust pushing my turbo as there would be if the turbo was 2" from the head. The exhaust will lose a small amount of velocity as it travels, but keep in mind the turbo being at the end of the pipe narrows the stream of exhaust down to the size of a dime to increase exhaust velocity before it hits the turbine. This creates back-pressure thus pressurizing the entire length of exhaust upon startup, and minimizing lag. As long as piping and turbo size are chosen carefully, there is very minimal increase in lag. to compensate for length of pipe, pipes have been downsized from what they would have been for a traditional front mount setup with the same size turbo. For example, my exhaust to the turbo is only 2.5", and charge pipes only 2". If you were to compare piping by volume, you'd see very little difference from a traditional setup to the one I am using. By volume I mean take all the pipes, fill them up with liquid and measure the amount of liquid... On top of all that, keeping wheelspin down on a 2.3 turbo is a real chore, so if I don't get full boost until 3,800rpm I'll be HAPPY!!
Aside from all the fluid dynamics, turbo sizing, comparisons and what not; it all boils down to this... I'm building a car for 90% driving, 10% track, this is not going to be a competition car. It's going to be my car. I like the idea of having factory under hood temps, full length radiator with full size fan, having a nice clean engine bay. Even if I lose 30 hp by having the turbo in the rear(which I doubt) it will still be worth it to me.
There's exactly 7" between the head and the radiator in this picture, so if I left 1" of clearance to the radiator and a 3/4" flanged manifold, I would have 5.25" of depth for a custom manifold, that would have to be one sneaky fancy manifold
Exhaust gas temperature plays more of a role than piping length. Heat wrap that bitch and don't try to 35R it and he'll be gravy.
Another good point, EGT's are the main reason exhaust loses velocity over length, so heat wrap will help somewhat. I plan on seeing how it does without first.
i rest my case...
your story tells how
you want to fill volume
with the barrieres
hot and cold creating
the exact atmosphere
= pressure(lines)
at the right time
and place...
f* mang
beautifull
wow i hate you so much. to think i was going to be one of the first to rock a wagon in the AK. not to mention your throwing in an F series turbo! lol o well you jus gave me inspiration.
OK, Updates FINALLY!!! If there's still anyone following! It's been a long time as usual, but I have been super busy trying to get this portion of the project wrapped up so I can actually drive it. I got the engine running yesterday, which is very very satisfying to know all of my wiring was correct. There literally is no wire in the engine harness that wasn't altered in some way. So this was a pretty big feat for me. I have also completed (98%) my remote turbo setup... I tried to take the pictures with some reference points so you can see where things are sitting under there and how the charge pipe makes the smooth transition from under the car to inside the engine bay.
Here's the oil pump with all the lines ran...
My shitty weld... whatever, just the downpipe Rear diff being gone frees up a lot of space
Apexi twin loop bov;)
And finally up to the throttle body.
If you ever decide to make your own exhaust system, buy one of these, totally worth the $89. I cut every pipe on the car with this thing, it's a snap. I use a reinforced black cutting wheel on it though.
I got all my CRX shifter pieces installed some time ago and I really wasn't happy with how low the shifter was in the wagon. After a lot of brainstorming I came up with this... I LOVE it, one of my favorite things about the car so far, it actually kinda matches the interior in my own weird opinion . It's a vintage HURST brand chrome shift handle. I cut and slotted the CRX shifter really low, then spliced/welded this in. Still need a shift knob for it, either a really old school aged wooden ball, or a white hurst ball, maybe even a 1960's clear knob with sparkles in it.
Then Here is my center console, it is from a jdm EG Hatchback. I had a big chunk of seat fabric left over from the seat I replaced... I kept it just incase I ever found something cool to wrap with it. voila, re-wrapped the armrest with it and it looks like an oem accessory.
That's it for now, I plan on driving this thing in a day or two, I just need a radiator now, mine crumbled when I tried to put a hose clamp on the radiator hose.... week
I'll try to get it up on a lift at work once it's driving to get some better full length shots of the turbo setup.
this wagon is absolutely sick. i've seen remote mount turbos on cameros and vettes but never a 4 cyl. much less a honda. def. gotta give props for coming up with your own way to do things plus the fabrication aspect of it. keep it up and hope to hear she's running SOON!
i like the remote turbo setup they always sound good ive herd a lot of corvettes with them since i work right next to a vette shop all u here is the wistle of the turbo and a throaty tone that things gona b nasty and i really like that shifter too i was gona do the same thing i just didnt have any money for the shifter lol so i found somethin i thought was equally cool go check out mine on the da wedge thread to see what im talkin bout keep the good work man
Drove it yesterday, whoo hoo! Got a few bugs to work out, but damn it moves... I'm getting full boost around 4,000 rpm, not bad at all. Lag was definately a concern, but no issues at all. wastegate and bov are working perfect, holding a steady 10lbs. Just need to get my o2 sensor wires straight, get a good charge on the battery and I should be cruising regularly. I'll have to put a vid up, I love the sound... I got more turbo whistle than an open down pipe semi truck. Ah, I'm geeked
Tragic, Epic FAIL. After my first test drive the engine started erratically running on 4,3 cylinders, sometimes even dipping down to 2. I figured it was a wiring bug and tried chasing it down. I kept restarting it, test driving it.... the engine started to smoke a lot from the catch can with a lot of excess crank case pressure. I kept trying to hunt down wiring issues but found nothing wrong. I pulled the plugs and 2 of the 4 were saturated with oil, and the tops of the pistons with a heavy coat. Also noticed oil seeping past almost every seam of the engine, pushing its way past the gaskets. It seams my dipstick is not the correct one for this engine, it's too short apparently, so with my calculations it had about 1.5-2 extra quarts of oil in it. I just tried draining some of the oil and letting it run in a last ditch effort to save the motor but I'm pretty sure it's too late. Car is still struggling to idle, still smoking heavily from the valve cover exits.
SOOOOO, good news is wiring is all good, turbo system is all good, turbo oil pump is fully functional and works quite well, auto to manual conversion and 4x4 to fwd conversion both work well. F2D swap fits well... Bad news is, I probably need to yank the motor and replace all the seals, gaskets, rings, bearings while I'm at it etc... While I'm at it I'll freshen up the head... Or I might just find a low mileage f22a, I can usually find these engines for under $300. That's what sold me on the f22-f23's in the first place... Cheap, abundant, and willing to hold 400hp on stock internals. Tough as nails, but I guess too much oil is their cryptonite.
This opens up a lot of options though. I don't know.
shitty deal..... i love that your using an f sereies i think they are a very underated motor in the honda world bisimoto makes them do amazing things. ive been wanting to see someone stuff an f or h into a wagon with a d-series tranny but i was hoping it would be 4x4 still.... why didnt u stick with the 4wd? from your expierience do u think it would be much tuffer for say someone who already has an rt4wd to swap in an f or h with as much ease....
It would come down to wether or not you could make rt4wd intermediate shaft bolt to the back of the block and if the transfer case would clear the oil pan. Other than that, it would swap in just like mine. I didn't do it because mine was an Automatic, and there are no rt4wd tranny's in any local junk yards. After shipping it would have been close to $750 to get one out of Oregon with high miles. I like the idea of a stronger drivetrain for $50-150 better.
Comments
This is how it started out...
and finished....
So today I finished fabbing my new 2.5" exhaust built to accommodate the rear mount turbo. I still need to drop it off at my friends shop to have the welds finished, right now it is just tack welded together... I let the pro's do the serious welds. You can see my Tial 38mm bov already mounted towards the rear of the pipe.
The turbo oil feed is just like traditional, a small braided stainless line tapped into a T at the oil pressure sensor will send pressurized oil to the turbo.. Getting the oil back to the engine is the trick. With a remote setup a pump must be used to send the oil from the turbo back to the oil pan. This is the STS oil pump.
That's it for now, Thanks for looking!
What about something like this:
Exhaust gas temperature plays more of a role than piping length. Heat wrap that bitch and don't try to 35R it and he'll be gravy.
Take a look at that sidemount manifold for instance, look at the length of each individual runner, say each runner is is roughly 16" longer than the runners of a factory 4-1 manifold, add up that 16+" x4, that manifold is pushing the exhaust 64+" before it reaches the turbo. Vs. my remote mount which has to travel roughly 76" of pipe to reach the turbo. Now if you were to add in a front mount intercooler to that setup, eyeball measure the length of pipe it would take to go from that turbo outlet to the front bumper, + the length of a fmic, + the length of pipe back to the throttle body. To give it the benefit of the doubt I'd say you'd have about 84" of piping. Vs. my setup of having about 88". Having the turbo in the back will lower the temp. of the turbo about 500 degrees, that along with the charge pipe being fully exposed to passing ambient air negates the need for an intercooler. A pretty nice benefit is that there will only be about 24" of pipe from the turbo to the back of the car, essentially always running "open downpipe" where the setup shown above would need about 120" of expensive 3" exhaust running from the turbo to the rear of the vehicle. As far as boost lag, there is just as much exhaust pushing my turbo as there would be if the turbo was 2" from the head. The exhaust will lose a small amount of velocity as it travels, but keep in mind the turbo being at the end of the pipe narrows the stream of exhaust down to the size of a dime to increase exhaust velocity before it hits the turbine. This creates back-pressure thus pressurizing the entire length of exhaust upon startup, and minimizing lag. As long as piping and turbo size are chosen carefully, there is very minimal increase in lag. to compensate for length of pipe, pipes have been downsized from what they would have been for a traditional front mount setup with the same size turbo. For example, my exhaust to the turbo is only 2.5", and charge pipes only 2". If you were to compare piping by volume, you'd see very little difference from a traditional setup to the one I am using. By volume I mean take all the pipes, fill them up with liquid and measure the amount of liquid... On top of all that, keeping wheelspin down on a 2.3 turbo is a real chore, so if I don't get full boost until 3,800rpm I'll be HAPPY!!
Aside from all the fluid dynamics, turbo sizing, comparisons and what not; it all boils down to this... I'm building a car for 90% driving, 10% track, this is not going to be a competition car. It's going to be my car. I like the idea of having factory under hood temps, full length radiator with full size fan, having a nice clean engine bay. Even if I lose 30 hp by having the turbo in the rear(which I doubt) it will still be worth it to me.
There's exactly 7" between the head and the radiator in this picture, so if I left 1" of clearance to the radiator and a 3/4" flanged manifold, I would have 5.25" of depth for a custom manifold, that would have to be one sneaky fancy manifold
Another good point, EGT's are the main reason exhaust loses velocity over length, so heat wrap will help somewhat. I plan on seeing how it does without first.
your story tells how
you want to fill volume
with the barrieres
hot and cold creating
the exact atmosphere
= pressure(lines)
at the right time
and place...
f* mang
beautifull
ofcuz its more than that
to it, ...respect
: )
nice work dude! 8)
Turbo = muffler.
Here's the oil pump with all the lines ran...
My shitty weld... whatever, just the downpipe Rear diff being gone frees up a lot of space
Apexi twin loop bov;)
And finally up to the throttle body.
If you ever decide to make your own exhaust system, buy one of these, totally worth the $89. I cut every pipe on the car with this thing, it's a snap. I use a reinforced black cutting wheel on it though.
I got all my CRX shifter pieces installed some time ago and I really wasn't happy with how low the shifter was in the wagon. After a lot of brainstorming I came up with this... I LOVE it, one of my favorite things about the car so far, it actually kinda matches the interior in my own weird opinion . It's a vintage HURST brand chrome shift handle. I cut and slotted the CRX shifter really low, then spliced/welded this in. Still need a shift knob for it, either a really old school aged wooden ball, or a white hurst ball, maybe even a 1960's clear knob with sparkles in it.
Then Here is my center console, it is from a jdm EG Hatchback. I had a big chunk of seat fabric left over from the seat I replaced... I kept it just incase I ever found something cool to wrap with it. voila, re-wrapped the armrest with it and it looks like an oem accessory.
That's it for now, I plan on driving this thing in a day or two, I just need a radiator now, mine crumbled when I tried to put a hose clamp on the radiator hose.... week
I'll try to get it up on a lift at work once it's driving to get some better full length shots of the turbo setup.
i like the re-wrapped center console/armrest.
SOOOOO, good news is wiring is all good, turbo system is all good, turbo oil pump is fully functional and works quite well, auto to manual conversion and 4x4 to fwd conversion both work well. F2D swap fits well... Bad news is, I probably need to yank the motor and replace all the seals, gaskets, rings, bearings while I'm at it etc... While I'm at it I'll freshen up the head... Or I might just find a low mileage f22a, I can usually find these engines for under $300. That's what sold me on the f22-f23's in the first place... Cheap, abundant, and willing to hold 400hp on stock internals. Tough as nails, but I guess too much oil is their cryptonite.
This opens up a lot of options though. I don't know.