1990 EF5 Civic RT-Si (4-door, 4WD sedan) Advice / Transformation Thread

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  • PootyTangPootyTang Band Wagon
    I took the pedals out of the old hatch last week. Everyone complains about this job. They're right, it reeaally sucks.


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    GOOD NEWS though, this arrived yesterday:


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    Big ups to Grifty!


    I think I'll be good to get my manual conversion under way while I have a bit of time off over Easter. I won't be trying to get the turbo going at the same time for a bunch of reasons, but I will do some things in provision for it while the engine is out (new radiator, turbo water cooling lines, etc.). One other worry is the gearbox mount, which might be a different height to the auto one :S


    I've also got some ARP head studs and a Cometic head gasket on their way from the States. I will also replace the cam belt when the head is off.


    I'm getting excited.
  • GriftyGrifty Wagonist
    Glad to see it all arrived quickly (Y), you may want to get the clutch pedal mount strengthened while its out as well, they are prone to crack
  • mr_sp33mr_sp33 Wagonist
    What's news?
  • PootyTangPootyTang Band Wagon
    mr_sp33 wrote: »
    What's news?

    Sorry for the lack of updates... I'm about half way through the manual conversion.

    I have taken the engine and auto box out. I decided to work on the old engine from the hatch.

    I took the head off, replaced head gasket and head studs. Cleaned it all up a bit. Replaced the cam belt and tensioned it. Got that all back together, got my flywheel lightened and fitted that with the new clutch. Got the 4wd manual gearbox fitted on too, nearly ready to go in. Last things I think I need to do to the powertrain is choose the best wires, hoses, dizzy etc. from the two engines and also fit my new thermostat.

    I am in the middle of worrying about the in-car shit. Got the old auto shifter assembly and cable out. The hole in the firewall for that looks the same as what I need for the manual shifter cables. I got the old pedal box out, for some reason this sucked even more than taking the manual ones from the old car when I thought it should be easier, had to drop the whole steering column etc. I'll need to drill a hole for the clutch cable which seems like it will be easy enough, but there's a metal box in the way of where the hole and pedal will go on the inside. Looks like it could be the ECU, but it must be in a different place on the old hatch. I need to borrow my mate's sockets to get that off because I don't have deep enough ones. Nothing in this world makes me angrier than those pedals.

    I've got a bunch of pictures of everything which I will try upload sometime soon. Hopefully I'll have it all running naturally aspirated to let it all break in before I go overseas in 6 weeks for a month. I'll worry about turbo stuff when I'm back because there's quite a bit of work to be done for that still, I'm just trying to think of good things to do now in provision for it while it might be easier, for example, T-ing off water lines for water cooling the turbo.
  • mr_sp33mr_sp33 Wagonist
    The ECU is in the same place as the hatch (passengers side foot well), post up a pic if you want and i'll see if i can identify it.
  • PootyTangPootyTang Band Wagon
    I have got the metal box free and unplugged it. I'll take a pic when I get home from work. Unfortunately it's always dark when I get home these days :(

    I should be able to drill a hole for the clutch cable soon and I'll have to mount that box in a different place.


    Does anyone have any idea about all the cables that went to the old auto shifter? There is a surprisingly large amount of them and of course the new manual shifter doesn't need any at all, so I'm wondering if there will be any issues with me just leaving them all disconnected. Here's some pics:

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    I'm gonna go ahead and upload all my other progress photos now too.
  • PootyTangPootyTang Band Wagon
    Set up for work:

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    [IMG]http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a584/Pooty-Tang/IMG_20140419_174214_zpsakywkvtn.jpg[/IMG The goods:[/img]IMG_20140421_151543_zpshlbjjkkv.jpg

    Couldn't resist test fitting the turbo exhaust mani:

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    Thankfully I give no fucks about A/C. I bought a half sized radiator (for an EG I think?). I was under the impression it would be pretty easy to fit but unfortunately it seems like it will be a bit tricky. I didn't take any pics of it sitting in there.

    Out she comes:

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    Head off, nice and scummy old gasket:

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    Cleaning block, head, and pistons a little bit:

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    ARP head studs wound into block finger-tight (just how I like it):

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    Cometic headgasket in place:

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    Head back on, head studs torqued down. Camshafts, rockers etc. back in:

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    The cam and crank seals were all replaced too.

    New lightened flywheel torqued on as well as new clutch:

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    Cam belt in place and tensioned. Water pump replaced. Rocker cover etc. back on:

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    No pics of gearbox being mated to the engine but that's been done too, with throwout bearing replaced. This side of things is mostly ready to go.
  • GriftyGrifty Wagonist
    cant wait to see more!

    That motor needs a degrease then it should look mint!
  • PootyTangPootyTang Band Wagon
    Here is the metal box that was mounted to the firewall and would get in the way of the clutch cable (and possibly pedal):


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    Is this the ECU??


    I have reinforced the pedal assembly around the pivot point for the clutch pedal as these are prone to break, particularly with a heavy clutch. I still need to drill a hole for the clutch cable and mount the new pedals in.


    I have got the shifter cables running through the firewall. I still need to mount the actual shifter assembly and I also need to find or make new bushings for the ends of the cables which connect to the shifter. No idea where I'd find the right ones other than a wrecked RT4WD wagon.


    After all that and swapping the ECUs, I'll be about ready to chuck the engine and gbox back in.
  • GriftyGrifty Wagonist
    Thats not the ECU, its the Control unit for the Auto trans.
  • PootyTangPootyTang Band Wagon
    Grifty wrote: »
    Thats not the ECU, its the Control unit for the Auto trans.

    Okay cool. So if I just leave that disconnected as well as all the cables that went to the auto shifter, then swap the ECU to the manual one, it should all run fine?
  • GriftyGrifty Wagonist
    Theoretically yes it should run fine.
  • klumklum Senior Wagonist
    Grifty wrote: »
    Theoretically yes it should run fine.

    yes theoretically lol sick build rare car bad ass everything thumbs up cool stuff
  • Sorry, it's been months... But I have a small update.

    I got this badboy in:

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    But it is only sitting on 3 mounts as I am having troubles with the rear one. I replaced the old rear mount with a brand new one for a manual tranny which bolts to the crossmember, but I need a new bracket which connects it to the gearbox. It seems to be specific to the gearbox, as the ones I have for the FWD MT and 4WD AT are both different:

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    And they both appear to be different to the one I need for the new gearbox:

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    I will get right into connecting everything else up after I sort that mount out. Everything should be straight forward enough, except I noticed that these are different because I am using the different engine:

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    Must be a difference in the production years? Or perhaps auto/manual? I am not yet sure what I'll do about this, I don't want to cut and replace either of the connectors because they have a different number of cables/pins, unless I find that a couple of them aren't necessary.

    Here's another teaser of what we can look forward to:

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  • Any updates on this beast?
  • Grifty wrote: »
    Any updates on this beast?

    Haha yes, sorry I have been so slack here now.

    It has been driving for a while but not without a few teething issues. Some kinda major, such as cam timing being out and CV joints blowing. Other little things like some of the wires not matching between the car and engine looms made some sensors not work, so it threw ECU codes and ran a bit rough then too. It's all running pretty well mint now though. The only concerns running-wise are that the radiator fan does not come on when at temperature and a rattle in the head. In my experience, these engines always have quite noisey rockers but it has gotten louder just in one specific area under the rocker cover. It's a bit like a popopop rather than the usual more quiet tapping.

    I also got sick of the old coilovers so bought some new ones:

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    I got all the interior trim back in today and gave everything a bit of a vacuum (finally):

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    Sometimes even I'm surprised how tidy the interior is. Though I'm keen on getting a new steering wheel pretty soon.

    The outside needs a proper clean, but this is how it looks right now, still at a conservative height:

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    Now it is a very fun car to drive. The manual conversion was always going to be a great improvement, but the difference is really night and day. It wasn't easy but it has finally paid off which is a great feeling. The handling is just amazing too.

    It won't be undergoing further big projects in the very near future because I'm going overseas again soon. We'll have to see what more potential we can unlock in the new year.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    I think I need to see this thing. :P
  • that interior is pretty sick!

    You could've just used the old engine harness and added reverse switch wiring and cam sensor wiring, might of been easier to do it that way.
  • Haydz wrote: »
    I think I need to see this thing. :P

    I think that can be arranged!
    Grifty wrote: »
    that interior is pretty sick!

    You could've just used the old engine harness and added reverse switch wiring and cam sensor wiring, might of been easier to do it that way.

    Yeah, good old hindsight. Retrospectively, I kinda wish I had used the whole head from the engine that came in this car, if not the whole engine. There were definitely a few times throughout the project I thought this because of how much stuff I switched between them. There were going to be hurdles with any combination of heads and looms used though. Thankfully that all still came together.

    And thanks again for helping to get some of the parts that were so hard to find!
  • SPWSPW Senior Wagonist
    Great work man! For you, what was the hardest part of the auto to manual conversion?
  • SPW wrote: »
    Great work man! For you, what was the hardest part of the auto to manual conversion?

    Hmm, I guess finding some of the parts. Some of the smaller things were quite tricky, there were a few points where I was asking people all around the world to see if I could find what I needed even though New Zealand is generally a good place to find them.

    Dropping the engine in and out is kinda always fun for me, I like the bigger stuff, but connecting all the shit around it is a bit too time consuming and knuckle-skinning.

    The pedal boxes are what I really loathe, there probably isn't a more infuriating job than taking them in and out. The shifter cables weren't quite as bad, still a little annoying, but I imagine this would really suck if you were doing a 4WD conversion on a factory manual FWD car because you'd need to cut the right size hole in the firewall. The new shifter cables go through the same size/shape hole in the firewall as the auto tranny cable so I didn't have to take much of the lower dash out.
  • SPWSPW Senior Wagonist
    Nice. I'm about to do this swap very soon. I just took a peak at the pedal asembely and it looks very crowded down there. I was lucky when I went to the junkyard to pull the pedals, the whole dash was stripped and steering column was unbolted. I've also heard the pedal swapping was probably the most aggravating part of the swap for most people.
  • SPW wrote: »
    Nice. I'm about to do this swap very soon. I just took a peak at the pedal asembely and it looks very crowded down there. I was lucky when I went to the junkyard to pull the pedals, the whole dash was stripped and steering column was unbolted. I've also heard the pedal swapping was probably the most aggravating part of the swap for most people.

    Aw yeah nice. Are you converting a 4WD shuttle? I don't think it will ever be a fun job but I can promise you it is worth it!




    Anyway, I fixed the noise in the head. Turned out to be a spark plug that started going loose :P


    However now the induction noise suddenly got twice as loud. It was always audible when you floored it, but now it's just crazy. First I thought the air filter (pod) had fallen off or the intake pipe had split but it all looks fine. I wouldn't actually be concerned if it didn't seem to be ever so slightly down on power and if it didn't happen so randomly without explanation.


    Anyone ever had that before? Here's an example video:

    4.mp4
  • klumklum Senior Wagonist
    this is so awesome i wish these things were available in the states, great work !
  • So after too long I found the culprit. The cam timing had slipped out which is what I really hoped it wouldn't be. The exhaust cam had advanced itself one tooth:


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    It was also a big mystery as to how this even happened, how one gear could slip ahead of the belt. There were no issues with the belt tension or the belt itself. In the end, we discovered that something had fallen in the cam belt cover and got caught up in it causing the slip. I tried to get a video showing the timing of the cams:


    1.mp4


    Well, now it's fixed, and what an improvement. I think I was wrong when I said it was twice as loud, it is so much more stealth now. And thankfully I wasn't imagining things when I thought it was slower. It is really nice and fun to drive again now, I am loving it.


    Definitely still looking forward to improvement in the power department though. Hopefully progress with this will commence within a couple of months.
  • Why can't we have badass AWD civic coupes/sedans/honda's here in the US
    We have the wagon, which are rare, the CRV with a bad front suppression design, the pilot; which is a soccer mom mobile, and the Element which would be my 2nd chose over the wagon...
    Plus most all of our civics have single cams...
  • Does the ALB in this still work?
  • Grifty wrote: »
    Does the ALB in this still work?

    Yeah it seems so. There are no strange lights coming up or anything?

    I had a great fang down a windy gravel road on Sunday and I could feel the pedal pulse if I braked too hard. On that note, what an amazingly fun drive. When you get the speed up, just engine braking and a slight tap on the brakes while slightly turning into the start of the corner would kick it sideways, leaving you with one option which was to power slide through it. Took a little while to get used to the counter steering after being used to RWD/FWD cars but man the 4WD system really came to life.

    The brakes are pretty worn now, they weren't too happy about getting quite hot. Upgrades are in order, not yet sure if I should stick with Civic parts or try upsize disks and calipers.

    Is there is anything especially tricky about bleeding the brakes through the ALB unit etc.?
  • GriftyGrifty Wagonist
    You need to bleed the ALB unit as well when you bleed the brakes at the same time.

    You apply power to the pump and then open the bleed nipple on the pump which is on the rear subframe. the large red connector on the firewall is the pump wire, simply put 2 spade connectors in it and run the to the batt to apply power. make sure you don't mix the positive and negative.

    the pump bleed nipple is under a red cap, its a square nipple and I found a 9mm socket worked best.

    I have a EF5 myself and was wondering if it's normal for the 4WD light to come one when you first start it and then it goes off as soon as you press the brakes?
  • PootyTangPootyTang Band Wagon
    Grifty wrote: »
    You need to bleed the ALB unit as well when you bleed the brakes at the same time.

    You apply power to the pump and then open the bleed nipple on the pump which is on the rear subframe. the large red connector on the firewall is the pump wire, simply put 2 spade connectors in it and run the to the batt to apply power. make sure you don't mix the positive and negative.

    the pump bleed nipple is under a red cap, its a square nipple and I found a 9mm socket worked best.

    I have a EF5 myself and was wondering if it's normal for the 4WD light to come one when you first start it and then it goes off as soon as you press the brakes?

    Hey thanks for the good info, this will come in handy.

    Yeah my one has done that since I got it. Both the yellow ALB (if I recall correctly) and 4WD light come on when you start it. The ALB light turns off after a second or two and then you have to be off the brake then press it again for the 4WD light to go away. Another guy here in NZ with an RTi sedan says his is the same.
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