Thermostat, temp guage problems?
Kahuna
familEE
Alright, the Wagon has been running fine, routine maintenence, oil checked, antifreeze checked, etc, all was ok.
Anyways, today I took about 60 mile trip, the car was ok, about 10 miles or so into the trip, I had to pass soem stupid Kia that couldn't decide how fast they wanted to go. (I followed them for a few miles and was aggrivated so I stepped on it to pass them)
After that I noticed that the temp guage started going way up. I let the gas, and the temp guage would go down, and when I would get back on the gas it would go up.
After a few miles of closely watching it, it would just fluctuate on it's own it seemed like, and I turned the A/C off, it seemed like it was getting hotter, turned the A/C back on and it didn't change anything.
So I kept on driving and kept a close eye on it, and it started going into the red zone, and right before the temp guage would get there, the fan would kick on (I could hear it click) and the guage would go down to about 1/2 way up, then start back up.
So I finally got where I was going, shut the car off, let it sit for a while, (about 6 hours) when I got ready to leave I checked all my fluids, and the oil was a little shy of being over the second line, which that doesn't matter much, and the antifreeze was completely gone out of the resivor, and the fluid inside the radiator was down around the first set of coils.
I went and got some water (no antifreeze availible) filled the radiator and coolent resivor back up, and started on my way home.
The temp had dropped about 10-15 degress from the trip over, and it was raining a little, and I didn't run the A/C much because it felt pretty good outside, so I just let the fan run.
Anyways, the car did fine, the guage stayed right under the water symbol, which is where it has always ran since I got the car. Everything was ok.
I got within about 2 miles of my house and some Mustang was acting like a punk and I figured what the heck so I stepped on it for maybe 8 seconds, if that. I turned onto our road, and noticed the temp guage started going really high, all the way into the red. I let off the gas, and it floated down some, and then I got to the house, let it idle for a little bit, and both fans were running. The temp guage went back down to normal after it sat for a few seconds.
So now my question is, what could this be and how can I fix it? Where should I even start looking? It has only done this to me once before and that was right when I stopped after driving about 60 miles, then it went back down and I didn't think anything about it.
Oh yeah, it always seems to happen a minute or so after I get on the gas.
I'm thinking I might need to change my antifreeze, and probably check the thermostat. If anyone else knows what else I should check, please let me know. THANKS!
P.S. sorry for such a long post, I just wanted to make sure you guys new what my situation was.
Anyways, today I took about 60 mile trip, the car was ok, about 10 miles or so into the trip, I had to pass soem stupid Kia that couldn't decide how fast they wanted to go. (I followed them for a few miles and was aggrivated so I stepped on it to pass them)
After that I noticed that the temp guage started going way up. I let the gas, and the temp guage would go down, and when I would get back on the gas it would go up.
After a few miles of closely watching it, it would just fluctuate on it's own it seemed like, and I turned the A/C off, it seemed like it was getting hotter, turned the A/C back on and it didn't change anything.
So I kept on driving and kept a close eye on it, and it started going into the red zone, and right before the temp guage would get there, the fan would kick on (I could hear it click) and the guage would go down to about 1/2 way up, then start back up.
So I finally got where I was going, shut the car off, let it sit for a while, (about 6 hours) when I got ready to leave I checked all my fluids, and the oil was a little shy of being over the second line, which that doesn't matter much, and the antifreeze was completely gone out of the resivor, and the fluid inside the radiator was down around the first set of coils.
I went and got some water (no antifreeze availible) filled the radiator and coolent resivor back up, and started on my way home.
The temp had dropped about 10-15 degress from the trip over, and it was raining a little, and I didn't run the A/C much because it felt pretty good outside, so I just let the fan run.
Anyways, the car did fine, the guage stayed right under the water symbol, which is where it has always ran since I got the car. Everything was ok.
I got within about 2 miles of my house and some Mustang was acting like a punk and I figured what the heck so I stepped on it for maybe 8 seconds, if that. I turned onto our road, and noticed the temp guage started going really high, all the way into the red. I let off the gas, and it floated down some, and then I got to the house, let it idle for a little bit, and both fans were running. The temp guage went back down to normal after it sat for a few seconds.
So now my question is, what could this be and how can I fix it? Where should I even start looking? It has only done this to me once before and that was right when I stopped after driving about 60 miles, then it went back down and I didn't think anything about it.
Oh yeah, it always seems to happen a minute or so after I get on the gas.
I'm thinking I might need to change my antifreeze, and probably check the thermostat. If anyone else knows what else I should check, please let me know. THANKS!
P.S. sorry for such a long post, I just wanted to make sure you guys new what my situation was.
Comments
if you need to change your antifreeze go ahead and do it now. when filling make sure to open the bleeder screw with the car running as you fill the radiator.
if you are still having problems go ahead and take your thermostat out and check it. stick it in a pot of boiling water and see if it opens at around 180 degrees.
if you need a new thermostat I recommend getting one from honda as i've known people who've had issues with non oem ones... and they are the same price give or take a buck or two.
Fair warning...headgasket leaks are very common on high mileage early D series engines. Honda used a composite metal/paper gasket that is prone to fail. It is recommended that 92-95 Civic EX/Si all metal headgasket be used if the opportunity/need presents itself.
Before I go tearing into the motor, I'm going to check the plugs and do a compression test.
Thanks so far for the help!
bad valve cover o-rings can also cause oil to be on top of the spark plug.
but a compression test sounds like a very good step. let us know what numbers you get!!
I've also changed the valve cover gasket, and put some sealent on it, and it still does the dirt.
I was playing with the bleeder valve today, and my system had A LOT of air in it, and I noticed my radiator fins had some corrosion looking stuff on them, so I'm going to change my anti-freeze and see if that works.
EDIT:
If the car idles, and the A/C is off, the radiator fans will not run, even at normal temp, then if I turn the A/C on, both fans will run. I found that kinda wierd.
a healthy d16a6 will put out about 185 max while the minimum is 135
normally people boasting higher numbers on stock older motors are seeing these numbers due to excessive carbon buildup in the combustion chambers which affectively raises their compression
its not so much how low the number but the variation between the cylinders that is the important part.
the max variation for a d16a6 is 28 psi.
so if all your cylinders are about 155 or so its probably just due to an older motor and your rings not sealing as well. after you get your readings you can go back and do a wet test (add some oil in there) and see what numbers you get then. this shows the compression you could be getting if your rings were sealing more effectively.
re: bleeding air from radiator
well i hope this was youre problem as its an easy fix!
re: fans
are you still having problems with your fan after you bled your radiator system? an airbubble in the system can keep the switch from getting a reading to turn on the fans.
from what you said before about when you turned the a/c off when your car was overheating, im thinking your fan is just not working?
If you want to short term ghetto fix the problem, wire that fan to a switch or just an ignition hot signal.
Which fan is the A/C fan and which is the cooling fan?
the AC fan is on the drivers side and has a green plug. so the other fan is white plug.
http://www.hondacivicwagon.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=850
Did a previous owner put any "Stop Leak" stuff in the cooling system?
How many miles are on the engine, radiator, and water pump? tip: the water pump should have been changed with the last timing belt job.
BTW, here is a dirty little test to see if you have a blown head gasket:
remove your radiator cap
top off (completely fill) the radiator and leave the cap off
start engine and rev it up
if water continuously shoots out of the radiator, you KNOW you have a head gasket or warped head problem.
if not, you may still have a head gasket problem :?
Also, antifreeze in the oil, or oil in the cooling system also means you have a head gasket problem.
Lastly, I wouldn't add fresh new antifreeze untill after you have fixed the problem. You may have to drain and fill the system a few times, and in makes more sense to just use water (and a little antifreeze). Just be sure not to forget you have water in there... winter is comming!
I started the car with the rad cap off as the manual says when changing the radiator fluid. and it would bubble some, but them it would stop after the radiator fluid got down to a certain level.
I changed the radiator fluid out as according to the manual, and used some Prestone radiator flush. It ran like normal except it start to idle very rough and sounded like the timing was off or something.
I got all the air out of the system and took the car for a spin. It ran at normal temp, except none of the fans were running. I rode aroudn for about 30 minutes, with a few near red-line take offs, just to see if the needle would rise, but it didn't. After about 20 minutes into the ride around, I got behind a slow car (40-45 mph) and I followed them for a few miles. I noticed that the needle started to climb when I was barely accelarating out of a turn, and it climbed close to hot (about 3/4 way up) so I kicked the heater on, and the temp guage start going down. It stayed at normal for the rest of the trip, and it seemed like the car had more power for some reason. I took off kinda hard again, (with the heat on) and the needle didn't rise. So I kicked the heater off, and it stayed at normal temp the rest of the way home. I pulled in and parked, and both the fans were running when I stopped, even with the heater off. The car was still idleing badly. I noticed that the hose on the top of the radiator was swollen about 2 times bigger than normal. Below are some pics of it.
I don't know what to check next. Is there anyway to tell if the thermostat is working properly other than taking it out?
Where is the water pump and how do I check it out?
Will I need to drain my antifreeze again?
The hose:
The radiator fluid that was green in the radiator, and then green in the black catch pan. Then when I put it in a white bucket it turned this color:
Winter? What kind of sick joke is that?
We're on our 4th week of 100+ temperatures.
I've never seen antifreeze that looked like pee before.
Once that is changed and the system is filled up again, let it idle with the rad. cap off. It might take 20 min or more, but wait for it to get up to operating temp and confirm that water is flowing through the radiator. The lower radiator hose should get hot and the radiator fan should cycle on and off a couple times. If all that happens and it isn't overheating, put the cap on and test drive.
sounds reasonable... do a motor swap, Kahuna!
I would do a motor swap if I had the money. I'm really just waiting for this motor to blow so I have an excuse to swap. But It needs to last long as possible.
I posted this on another forum and one user asked if the fluid had went down, and it has gone down after cooling off. Here was his reply:
Its sounding like a cross leak head gasket problem.
On combustion stroke its pushing air into the flow ports cause air to be in your system. Hence the above 1-2" Above max.
After the car is shut off and cooled down the water is sucked back into the engine. Hence being below normal.
Are there any places on the hoses coming out of the heads, going into the rad, coming out of the rad where theres somthing you could screw off like a cap to check and see if theres air in the system?
I bet if you where to pull the hose coming out of the heads off it'll be dry..
that looks like a lot of pressure buildup and I bet most of that is air.
have you tried opening the bleeder valve after you first start up the car to see what comes out?
it may be running poorly because of the water but does the motor sound like its knocking? you said you had a little glitter..
thing is if you do it soon enough you can just get
a new headgasket ($40-50 from honda)
some oil
new radiator fluid
and a new radiator hose
and if you aren't planning on running the motor much longer check the timing belt and if it looks brand new reuse it. but i'd recommend getting another one if you have any doubt.
if you are low on money i'd try to make this thing last. its definately cheaper than doing a swap and takes a lot less time.
if its soon enough you might be able to make the motor last a decent while longer (your motor may go after a few months or it may never go while you have it.. just depends whats happened inside) until you can get some more money.
There is no knocking or anything, just a small swishing squeak type sound, but that it from a pully (I think power steering) and I think it's just a bearing going bad.
I've opened the bleeder, and it just bubbles with a bunch of air, and I can't get any fluid to come out. Just a little bit, but I left it open for about ten minutes and fluid never would flow continuously.
I can do the headgasket, thats no problem.
M biggest concern is do I need to set the motor at a certain posistion, or can I just tear down and put it back together? Is there any guides to this?
http://www.carenthusiast.com/crxuk/CRX_Workshop_Manual.pdf
check the engine section. cylinder head removal/installation
also check the engine section. timing belt. replacement and positioning
you might also venture down to the local machine shop with your head and have them use a precison straight edge on it to check for warpage.
i can't imagine them charging more than 10-20 bucks for this. they may do it for free.
max warpage is .008
also before reinstalling, take a quick look at your headbolts and check for stretch. if stretched the threads will show a slight taper. so far I've never had to replace any headbolts from the motors i've done.. even from ones that showed signs of HG failure.
HTH
My motor is a D15B2, does that change anything with the guide you posted?
Also, which one is the #1 cylinder, and where can I buy a HG for a good price? I don't really wanna cheap out on one.
#1 cyl is closest to the timing belt. I would recomend setting the engine to top dead center before pulling anything apart just so you have a reference point upon reassembly. Read the part about putting the cam belt back on, and you'll see how the book references getting it in the right place relative to the cam (you can almost bet the cam is going to turn relative to the crank at some point, and through it off. I ususally mark the cam wheel with a scriberight across it at the valve cover gasket to make sure, but you can do it a hundred differnt ways. If you dont it just adds some time the reassembly but you won't be screwed.
One other thought... use a new t-stat, and make sure it has a rubber seal at the very bottom... it seals off the radiator bypass when the t-stat is open. Most aftermarket does not have the seal and does not completely block the bypass as a result. When the bypass is closed, 100% of the water goes through the radiator. When it's not, some circulates through the head back to the water pump therough the head again and bypasses the radiator (not the best for cooling).
One other way to positively validate a head gasket is to buy BlockCheck, it's a tool sold by Mr Gasket that takes a sample of coolant and tests it for exhaust gas chemically. If there is any blow through into the coolant it changes the sample to almost black. no mistaking the result. BlcokCheck is a little hard to find, but it works.
What's the point in even setting it at TDC? If you pull it off, and put it back together, there is no point in it. I think my outside pistons were around TDC, I marked the timing belt and cam pully, pulled it apart, put it back together, and runs good as new.