RT4WD to AWD wtih Viscous Coupler

MegaWagon91MegaWagon91 Wagonist
in Engine & Drivetrain
With the rt system it's very unpredictable and I'm trying to make it all wheel drive so that when I rally my wagon for racing it is more predictable. Because sometimes when I go into a turn I get under steer and if the RT system locks I get over steer an the rear end swings around so I'm trying to just eliminate that unpredictability with AWD. This is the application to be clear.

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So from recent discussions with Bam on the Instagram I pretty much welded a dust shield to the outer casing of the viscous coupler. I installed the drive shaft after the weld and took it around the block. After the short test drive I check to see if it was still attached and it was to my surprise. Now I'm wondering if anyone else has tried this before? Am I wasting my time trying to do this with my stock drive shaft? Should I have a custom drive shaft made from trans to diff all one piece? Or go buy another drive shaft because I have royally F*** up this drive shaft. (Bam's opinion) Not like there's anything wrong with that.

If anyone has information about my application please shed light in this post in the form of constructive criticism. Just looking for guidance on this one.

Thanks.
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Comments

  • greenteagodgreenteagod Moderator
    I probably wouldn't have welded a part that's somewhat a pain in the ass to procure. Custom drive shafts are easy and you could probably have a little segment fabbed up that would take place of the coupler. That said I've not even delved into that type of idea before, at least not on hondas. I just know getting a driveshaft made isn't any big deal. Replacing a viscous coupler, that could be a bit of a pain.
  • turbo_tegturbo_teg Council Member
    If its "race only" thats not bad i would kinda like to weld one up someday for winter time fun. I have a good viscous with front shaft if yer looking for one haha.
  • AbideAbide Council Member
    the unpredictability is in your weight management, practice your braking more. your RT shouldnt be understeering through corners.....unless you just hammer the throttle into it. I had a subaru guy co-drive with me today that was shocked at its ability to change direction. and he is usually in a gutted, bumper-less 1 seat 2.5RS

    would I? no, mine seems to light the rears up just fine launching.
    but are you going to hurt anything? Maybe? Probably not. Did it improve anything? You tell us, do you feel like it handles better now?
  • klumklum Senior Wagonist
    Abide wrote: »
    the unpredictability is in your weight management, practice your braking more. your RT shouldnt be understeering through corners.....unless you just hammer the throttle into it. I had a subaru guy co-drive with me today that was shocked at its ability to change direction. and he is usually in a gutted, bumper-less 1 seat 2.5RS

    would I? no, mine seems to light the rears up just fine launching.
    but are you going to hurt anything? Maybe? Probably not. Did it improve anything? You tell us, do you feel like it handles better now?

    i can agree prior to getting my 4wd back on in my car ( had to source driveline ) it handled like shit but now im powering thru all the turns practice makes perfect draw power from tranny make sure your shifting smoothly and using the clutch inline with brakes its all timing understeer sounds like a allignment / driver problem if anything.

    one other thing to check is to see if your axles are slidng

    can someone tell me what a solid driveline would do to the tranny and or diff? if i would have known that was a option i would have had a full line made instead of waiting 3 years to find a new line lol fml.
  • AbideAbide Council Member
    we have open diffs everywhere and the gear ratios are off by so little it shouldnt matter much. the only worry you should have is in low speed high traction, high torque situations. Adding that much load and shock when you removed a slip point might break something but it would probably still be an axle anyway.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    Push it and see. I have seen three transaxles pop and they all kinda went differently. So I don't believe there is a common weak point, just different scenarios that cause different breakage.
  • MegaWagon91MegaWagon91 Wagonist
    Well all I'm waiting for now, is the snow flakes to fall and a passenger front axle to be put back in. We'll see how the rockauto axles fit for the RT work. I'm a little skeptical. Haven't had a lot of luck with aftermarket axles for the RT at least. never seem to be long enough.

    Are you guys road racing or rally racing?
    the unpredictability is in your weight management, practice your braking more. your RT shouldnt be understeering through corners.....unless you just hammer the throttle into it. I had a subaru guy co-drive with me today that was shocked at its ability to change direction. and he is usually in a gutted, bumper-less 1 seat 2.5RS

    I imagine rally.
  • MegaWagon91MegaWagon91 Wagonist

    Solid axle carbon fiber just saying.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    I believe that is from Jakers wagon.
  • superhatchsuperhatch Moderator
    Haydz wrote: »
    I believe that is from Jakers wagon.

    I thought his wagon was RWD though?

    Edit: From his wagon...got it.

    I think that the solid shaft and stock rear diff from Jakers wagon took about 225hp/200tq, so I think a solid shaft would be ok. My only concern is using it as a DD on dry pavement a lot. Jaker seemed to think that the open diffs would allow for some 'play' in terms of forces on running a solid shaft.

    I'm really curious about this now. Seems like LOTS of weight and complexity can be dropped out with a solid shaft.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    Yeah, and his is one of the transaxles that I mention. Pretty sure his one cracked open.
  • superhatchsuperhatch Moderator
    I sent the owner a msg on instagram and he said that it did well in the snow but it would bind up like the ebrake was on when he was in reverse. He has it installed and is using it as RT4WD/AWD.

    I was really hoping for a solid shaft option that was normal, but not sure if this makes me feel better or worse. heh.

    I've read some eclipse 1g forums talking about 1 piece options and they say as long as your yoke is aligned correctly the 1 piece works really well. I think in the end I'm still going to look for a 1 piece custom option and have a place make one.
  • superhatchsuperhatch Moderator
    I just talked with two shops, DSS and PST, and both suggested not using a 1 piece shaft in a car that was going to be AWD and didn't have a diff in the trans.

    DSS would make one for me for $1500 which I could stomach, but his suggestion was for off-road use only...literally not for a DD. PST said they wouldn't even make one for me.

    Whelp.
  • AbideAbide Council Member
    dont take this the wrong way but what exactly are you trying to gain? if anything i consider the slip of the VC an advantage in a lower traction environment. I let a guy who normally runs a stripped 2.5RS take a spin in my wagon this weekend and he loved the way the grip felt. he wants one now. and the higher gearing in the rear? SH-awd still does this, fords new RS focus does it.

    throw a diff in the rear for the money, youll get more back out of it.
  • superhatchsuperhatch Moderator
    I was thinking about the solid shaft having three benefits.

    1. Not relying on a 25 year old part that's hard to find and has limited rebuild availability.

    2. Reduction of weight in a rotating assembly.

    3. A faster responding 4WD.

    I think at this point I'm going to send my VC in for a rebuild (found a guy on ebay here in the US, http://www.ebay.com/usr/st3dave ) and buy an LSD as you suggested. Frank from DSS said there wouldn't even really be any weight savings by replacing the two shafts with CF pieces.
  • MrWhoopeeMrWhoopee Wagonist
    superhatch wrote: »
    I think at this point I'm going to send my VC in for a rebuild (found a guy on ebay here in the US, http://www.ebay.com/usr/st3dave )

    For the price that STE is currently charging ($350 ?), I'd suggest doing it yourself. The seals were about $30 (when I did mine) from Hercules Sealing Products

    http://www.herculesus.com/

    1 ea. Shaft Lip Seal Hercules #MOS-38X50X7TC
    2 ea. Quad-ring Seal Hercules #QR-4325
    1 ea. O-Ring Seal Hercules #MOR-94.4x3.1-90

    I still have some of the 100,000 cSt PDMS (Polydimethylsiloxane), which is a little thicker than the stock fluid, providing quicker lockup. $50 plus shipping for enough to do 1 coupler. It's not rocket science, just a little time consuming. If you haven't already, read this thread:
    https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?9747-DYI-rebuilding-repair-RT4wd-Viscous-Coupler
  • superhatchsuperhatch Moderator
    MrWhoopee wrote: »
    For the price that STE is currently charging ($350 ?), I'd suggest doing it yourself. The seals were about $30 (when I did mine) from Hercules Sealing Products

    Ok! Ordering parts now.

    Toss me your paypal and I'll send you...$65? To cover shipping and paypal costs?
  • Macan724Macan724 Band Wagon
    MrWhoopee wrote: »
    For the price that STE is currently charging ($350 ?), I'd suggest doing it yourself. The seals were about $30 (when I did mine) from Hercules Sealing Products

    http://www.herculesus.com/

    1 ea. Shaft Lip Seal Hercules #MOS-38X50X7TC
    2 ea. Quad-ring Seal Hercules #QR-4325
    1 ea. O-Ring Seal Hercules #MOR-94.4x3.1-90

    I still have some of the 100,000 cSt PDMS (Polydimethylsiloxane), which is a little thicker than the stock fluid, providing quicker lockup. $50 plus shipping for enough to do 1 coupler. It's not rocket science, just a little time consuming. If you haven't already, read this thread:
    https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?9747-DYI-rebuilding-repair-RT4wd-Viscous-Coupler


    Thanks for pointing us in the right direction MrWhoopee. Hadn't even considered servicing the VC but, thanks to the thread shortcut and listed part #s you provided, all I have to do is print, order, and go to town on my VC. Much appreciated.
  • MrWhoopeeMrWhoopee Wagonist
    superhatch wrote: »
    Ok! Ordering parts now.

    Toss me your paypal and I'll send you...$65? To cover shipping and paypal costs?

    Sounds good, PM Sent
  • MrWhoopeeMrWhoopee Wagonist
    Be sure to view this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feD4D1quS0k
    The method for filling the VC shown in the thread referenced above WILL NOT work with the correct PDMS fluid. It is much too thick to flow into the coupler. You must fully disassemble the stack, pour fluid into the housing (with shaft in place) and reinstall the plates individually to allow the trapped air to escape.

    Once it is filled and closed up, remove the pipe plug from the end of the coupler opposite the shaft and stand upright (open hole on top) in an oven at 200 degress F. Bake for 3-4 hours, allowing the expanding fluid to escape thru the open hole (place a pan underneath to catch the escaping fluid). When no more fluid is exiting the VC, remove from the oven and allow to cool to room temp before replacing the plug. This will allow enough air into the unit to provide room for expansion of the fluid when the VC gets hot. Without this air, the fluid will force itself past the seals when it expands, potentially damaging the seals.
  • superhatchsuperhatch Moderator
    So the assumption is that the VC heats up to 200*F or is that just a number used to get the right amount of air in the system?
  • MrWhoopeeMrWhoopee Wagonist
    superhatch wrote: »
    So the assumption is that the VC heats up to 200*F or is that just a number used to get the right amount of air in the system?

    The maximum temperature for the seals is (IIRC) 240 deg., so I assumed the unit would not reach that temp.
  • greenteagodgreenteagod Moderator
    MrWhoopee wrote: »
    Be sure to view this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feD4D1quS0k

    And don't forget to laugh at the funny annotation at the last second of the video =D
  • MrWhoopeeMrWhoopee Wagonist
    While watching the video, I remembered having to punch out the little steel ball in the end-cap (shaft end) to allow the air to escape while pushing the cap back in place. After the big retaining ring is in place, reinstall the the ball and stake it (punch the surrounding metal) to secure it.
  • MegaWagon91MegaWagon91 Wagonist
    Update weld didn't hold to the dust cover no surprise there. On to plan B which will consist re-welding the drive shaft or having a custom driveshaft made all one piece.

    For the time being I'll be rocking the wagon in 2wd.

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  • MegaWagon91MegaWagon91 Wagonist
    Ok I think this is going to work this time.

    I remove the 4 10mm bolts connecting to the back half of the drive shaft to access the 32mm nut.
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    then I removed the 32mm nut with a impact gun pretty easy.
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    then I just removed what was in my way.
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    Now I think I have got a point where I can put some welds down where my fingers are pointed.
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    Thinking about welding this up today. Hopefully this will work.
  • MegaWagon91MegaWagon91 Wagonist
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    OH BABY!!! I am so excited to test this out.
  • MrWhoopeeMrWhoopee Wagonist
    No going back with that VC. At the very least you will find out why they put it there. Hope it works for you.
  • greenteagodgreenteagod Moderator
    I just hope it was trashed in the first place, otherwise getting a shaft made is cheap compared to a coupler replacement
  • MegaWagon91MegaWagon91 Wagonist
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    Huston we have lift off.

    Installed the driveshaft today, and from my first impressions its pretty awesome! I was able to find a parking lot with just a little snow dust. For the first time it felt predictable sliding sideways, and initiating the slide.


    Pros: More predictable, RTAWD, More Responsive, MAD Launches.


    Cons: Has that 4wd tight turn bind, probably worse gas mileage (update coming).
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