All around street performance suspension set-up.

Hello,

Since I am building my wagon I do have many lingering questions, so I am sorry ahead of time for asking so much.

However, I did search all over the forum, but there are only a few old threads of track oriented wagons.

Or there is both positive and negative info about certain things.

First, my wagon is a 4wd one, and it is a fairly light vehicle, and has good weight distribution (55/45), so it inherently should handle pretty well.

There also is not much weight in front to make it understeer like crazy with the right set up.

My plan would be to try and make the wagon nimble, and have a neutral or maybe even a little oversteery behaviour in the corners.

These are the parts I have purchased and waiting for them to get to me for install:

- rota rkr 15x8 et0 wheels wrapped in 225/50-15" tires (more tire = more grip. But later on I might go for toyo proxies).
- SK import lca + rear camber kit.
- SK import UCA camber kit.
- Front upper strut brace.
- Weitec springs and shocks from 5th gen hatch ( used item, a KW branch, german when new $600+ usd kit, got it for $110, should be good? ).

Things that I consider buying:

- rear upper strut tower brace: read mixed opinions, also read that most of the time they do NOT fit, and if it is adjustable one then it sucks from the get go.
- rear swaybar. Read that it ought to help. Also read that it needs modification to fit and work.

Please give your opinion, I will go on and experiment with various set ups and mods, because I believe our platform is ultra cool and has potential.

Comments

  • Can't comment on camber stuff, but I did notice a tremendous difference in just adding the strut tower brace up front and a rear sway bar. Haven't done a rear brace since the steering is about where I like it anyway.

    Changing to different springs and struts stiffened things up even further. I've also upgraded the bushings everywhere too, not sure if you've already done that, but that definitely helps as well.
  • TadasTadas Wagonist
    Where did you get a rear sway bar that fits our wagon?
  • AbideAbide Council Member
    rear strut braces will be 1-2" too wide.

    Rear sway bar = ST suspensions for off the shelf https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?17538-Suspension-Techniques-Rear-Sway-Bar-install-on-RT4WD-DIY&p=209713#post209713

    but this is better for the same money but more work: https://www.facebook.com/notes/hollis-racing/the-hollis-bar-diy-rear-sway-for-st-hondas/202403919843582
    and you can make it fit our position with correct length arms better than anything else. and no bend means it wont hit the diff on a RT

    225 is quite a bit of tire though, on a 15x8 with 0 offset is going to be in your fender without tons of camber. May want to do a little more research there unless you're planning overfenders or something.
  • I nabbed my rear sway bar off a junkyard integra. I imagine the one Abide posted would be a good deal stiffer so that's something to consider. Mine was only about $20 though so just depends on your budget.

    https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?18438-Rear-Sway-bar-inquiry&highlight=rear+sway+bar

    The first pic is from a different guide, they actually welded up end links from stock parts and used some SI lower control arms I think. I have the function 7 LCAs and since you have the skunks, I didn't see the need to go that route with it.

    I just had to shim it up and add some longer bolts because my end links were short. I'd paid $70 for the end links so I didn't want them to just end up in a box somewhere and me end up getting some new ones. The shims let me get it as close to 90 degrees as possible though, which was nice.
  • TadasTadas Wagonist
    Abide wrote: »

    225 is quite a bit of tire though, on a 15x8 with 0 offset is going to be in your fender without tons of camber. May want to do a little more research there unless you're planning overfenders or something.

    I do have massive welded fenders front and rear. The tires will tuck perfectly. You can check my build thread on here. So it will not be a problem of being too wide, I do have the tires and rims on the car now.

    Thank you for excellent info about the sway bar.
    But still the question remains does it work and does our car get improved handling because of it?
  • AbideAbide Council Member
    It's stiff and adjustable and does what a rear sway bar does, so yes it works. Improving is relative to the feel the driver has at the wheel imo and tuning your suspension can be done many different ways. mine was neutral on full soft and would induce a little trailbraking oversteer on medium. The endlinks did not fit properly at full stiff but i dont think it needed it. If i decide i need a rear sway again i would just build that Hollis bar though.
  • Tadas wrote: »
    I do have massive welded fenders front and rear.

    Yep, Gargamel has some fat flare. Though I didn't think the question remained about it working, rear sway bar makes a marked improvement. Like Abide said, it works.

    146.jpg
  • LowFlyin'LowFlyin' Moderator
    The part that is going to have the greatest effect on handling of your wagon is going to be the spring rate, followed closely by the shocks.

    I would not recommend putting a large rear sway bar (well, any sway bar on the rear, for that matter) for a performance setup. Too big of a bar will lift the rear inside wheel off the ground. Unless you put an LSD back there, that will render the AWD useless in those situations.

    I would recommend using at least 400# springs front and rear. If you are wanting the car to be neutral to oversteer, use a heavier spring in the rear.

    I'm currently driving my Wagon with my CRX autoX setup on it that has 450# springs front and 650# in the back. With no sway bar and the stock 19mm up front. I would recommend a larger bar up front to help keep the rear wheels on the ground during trailbraking and turn-in.
  • There you go, listen to LowFlyin' he knows what he's talking about. I'm just running 2wd so I can't speak to effects of a rear sway on 4wd. It helped flatten me out in the turns though.
  • TadasTadas Wagonist
    LowFlyin' wrote: »
    The part that is going to have the greatest effect on handling of your wagon is going to be the spring rate, followed closely by the shocks.

    I would not recommend putting a large rear sway bar (well, any sway bar on the rear, for that matter) for a performance setup. Too big of a bar will lift the rear inside wheel off the ground. Unless you put an LSD back there, that will render the AWD useless in those situations.

    I would recommend using at least 400# springs front and rear. If you are wanting the car to be neutral to oversteer, use a heavier spring in the rear.

    I'm currently driving my Wagon with my CRX autoX setup on it that has 450# springs front and 650# in the back. With no sway bar and the stock 19mm up front. I would recommend a larger bar up front to help keep the rear wheels on the ground during trailbraking and turn-in.

    This is extremely valuable information!

    For now I do have a premade used kw set of springs and shocks for 5G civic waiting for install.

    However for the life of me I cannot find the spring rates for about the kit.

    I did plan on getting a bc racing coilover kit with 350/250 spring rate. But now if I order a set it will have to come with custom 400/500 or so spring rates. Usually they come with more lbs in front.

    Also, my wagon is rt4wd, does the rear diff not have an lsd in it from factory? If not it would be nice to get one with it.

    I will look for a larger front sway bar as you suggested.

    Finally, would you give more info of how your wagon set up behaves under road race/ autoX situations?


    Thank you again for this info, I will have to spend much less euro and time working out the proper set up for occasional track days and twisty fun.
  • quartersquarters Council Member
    I respectfully disagree. A rear bar makes the car have less oversteer and improved the day to day handling dramatically. I have a 21mm mugen rear bar and 19mm feont oem bar.
  • I think what Lowflyin' was talking about though was track day stuff where you'd be turning in so hard that a big bar would cause you to lift a wheel and lose any traction from that wheel itself, unless you had Limited Slip. For some spirited on the road driving, I think it would be fine. If you're taking hairpins at speed though it sounds like you'd effectively be turning it into FWD once that inside rear wheel lifts. But I'll let him speak more to that.
  • AbideAbide Council Member
    nope, not even lifting tire. More sway bar rate in the rear = more oversteer. on my stock suspension on the low setting on the ST bar 22mm it was pretty neutral, would have a perfect oversteer on heavy braking on medium though. I just attempted to run mine on low on a road course after all the new dirt stuff. It was hilarious on stiff and still too much on low. un-bolted an endlink and it was back to neutral.

    alternatively i have a gigantic 32mm on the front of my s2000 to make it quit understeering like a piggy when it isnt wearing 255s up front.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    The FWD wagon has a tendency to oversteer, that is for certain. I didn't add a sway bar but I did go with 12K/6K springs. It stopped oversteering.

    My setup:

    Fortune Auto 500 coilovers
    Skunk2 Pro front upper camber arms
    Ingalls rear camber arms
    Energy Suspension bushes
    Rota Slipstream 16x8
    Falken ZE912 205/40/16

    I avoided spherical bearing stuff because it needs to be usable for multiple different event types and still stay reasonably comfortable on the road.

    I do not agree that more tyre is better. You run into issues with tram-lining and a loss of turn-in.

    My setup is pretty basic and the thing handles AWESOMELY.
  • All I know is after my front swaybar upgrade and my suspension setup ( kyb gr2 on GC with ebay top hats) the car handles like its on rails. Thats even with it being stancy pants. 117.jpg

    118.jpg
  • klumklum Senior Wagonist
    Chase wrote: »
    All I know is after my front swaybar upgrade and my suspension setup ( kyb gr2 on GC with ebay top hats) the car handles like its on rails. Thats even with it being stancy pants.

    may i ask what front sway setup you went with? i been thinking of upping mine up , after the sway in the rear i think it needs a little more in the front to balance the over steer in tight agressive situations
  • klum wrote: »
    may i ask what front sway setup you went with? i been thinking of upping mine up , after the sway in the rear i think it needs a little more in the front to balance the over steer in tight agressive situations

    Sorry man Im not even sure which sway bar it is. I got it off a buddy who had it on his 91 hatch that he used for autocross. It was a normal looking 22mm sway bar with poly bushings. I paid $20 for it lol. Ill let you know if I find a make or model.
  • TadasTadas Wagonist
    Sorry to ressurect dead thread, but I have made an update, and got a few questions. My current set-up is

    - rota rkr 15x8 et0 wheels
    - new toyo proxy t1r's 205/45 R15
    - SK import lca + rear camber kit.
    - SK import UCA camber kit.
    - Front upper strut brace.
    - Rear upper strut brace.
    - Weitec springs and shocks from 5th gen hatch ( used item, a KW branch )

    Onto my problems after a long drive:
    - Front swaybar rubbers are all dead, so I need to replace them, or possibly get a new swaybar?
    - Rear swaybar, after re-reading this thread I still do not know if I should just buy a smaller one and install it for oversteer fun!
    - Random - when accelerating my car sort of pulls to the right, and when I let of gas it jolts to the left. Is this my alignment screwed up, or maybe even the diff?

    Since I am slowly making my car streetable again, I want to spend some money on suspension, but for the time being keeping the weitec shocks and springs. I will buy coilovers later on when everything is perfect.
    Please help me out so I can enjoy the wagon to the fullest.
  • wagodizzlewagodizzle Council Member and EDM expert
    Tadas wrote: »

    - Random - when accelerating my car sort of pulls to the right, and when I let of gas it jolts to the left. Is this my alignment screwed up, or maybe even the diff?

    Alignment usually pulls to one side only.

    I would check for some worn bushings first. perhaps the adjustable camber kit parts are loose as well...?
  • arries289arries289 Wagonist
    What Wagodiizzle said....Something is loose, damaged, or badly worn. This would not be an alignment issue by itself. Go back and check and retorque, esp. the front suspension.
  • TadasTadas Wagonist
    Solved! It was suspension bolt being loose. Big question now is rear swaybar. Found one for sale for $70 from si (vti) Ef civic. How hard is the install? I think ill try it and see if I like it.
  • EVILEMPIREEVILEMPIRE New Wagonist
    I want my wagon to turn as well but font know where to start:[
  • I have another picture some where from the CRX autoXing that has the rear wheel much higher, but this pic was taken going into a medium left corner during the last bit of the braking zone and turn-in point.

    zbLvziS.jpg

    The CRX had a 22mm rear bar on it at the time.
  • ricards2ricards2 Band Wagon
    That staggered setup looks nice. I'm cuious regarding the size/offset of the wheels.
  • TadasTadas Wagonist
    In that picture I had very rare 225 R15 tires, but now I went to smaller 205/50 R15 tires.
    The wheels are rota R15 EJ8 wide, and 0ET offset. Make note that I have ridiculous metal fenders on my shuttle.
    Also, it has been lowered. Please look at the 10th page of my thread - you can see how my updated wagon sits on these wheels:

    https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?17598-Lithuanian-1992-Shuttle-named-quot-Gargamel-quot/page10






    However I do have a question for the gurus:

    I currently run Weitec springs and shocks from 5th gen hatch ( used item, a KW branch, german when new $600 ) :

    179.jpg
    267.jpg
    268.jpg

    I really like the ride, but here is the deal - since it is from 5th gen hatch I had to switch the front forks to larger diameter hole ones.

    Problem - the front of the car sits higher then the rear.

    Option 1 - Since the springs are linear, could I just saw off the front ones by a bit?

    Option 2 - what kind of lowering springs could I order to fix this imbalance? Or will they all cause even more misalignment?

    I do want a soft ride so I was looking into eibach proline springs for 5th gen hatchback - they probably should just bolt in and be progressive instead of linear.

    Option 3 - I would rather spend $220 on new springs then try and order BC racing Type RS street coilovers with 6kg front 4kg rear (or like 7/5) since they cost $1000+ and I might not even like them.

    Spring is coming, I will install the rear swaybar and I want to make the wagon sit flush, just like it should.


    Please help! Now is a good time to save up and make an order.
  • TadasTadas Wagonist
    There is one other option I thought about - Drop forks. But I wonder if there will be enough space for the axles to travel about their way. This option would keep the shock travel the same, which would be wonderful.

    https://www.mpcmotorsport.com/product-page/billet-drop-forks

    What do you think?
  • swartoutswartout Band Wagon
    I haven’t quite figured out how to start a thread. But was wondering how to operate the rear wiper on my 87 civic wagon.
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