Alignment/Suspension Woes - Important Read for Lowered Wagos
B18C5-EH2
Moderator
Well I've owned my 1990 Civic wagon for two years now, and shortly after I got it I had swapped out the coil-overs, added Skunk2 cambers kits up front, added some rear shims to correct camber, and also gotten new tires as well as personally done the 4-wheel alignment.
I've always prided (is that a word?) on my ability to have lowered cars, but still get very even tire wear. I'm not one of those people who preaches about camber kits, and close to zero camber (ruins handling) but I'm also not one to believe that -3 degrees of camber is okay provided you have good toe settings. Extreme amounts of camber can still ruin tires. It just makes any toe issues that much more exaggerated, and leaves little/no room for error.
Well I noticed a month or so ago that my tires had the dreaded inside edge wear, and it was time for new tires. My wheels are reverse-mount, meaning the tires have to be mounted face down, and our machine at work doesn't do this because the special adapters for it are broken.
While my wheels were getting new tires mounted on them I decided I'd realign my car on some borrowed steelies.
Little did I know a "simple alignment" was going to be a can of worms.
I figured 2 years of daily driving, and that slightly off centered (I mean almost not noticeable) steering wheel combined with the inside edge wear warranted an alignment.
So here's a few reference pics of my wagon - NOT slammed, but certainly much lower than stock:
It rides at about a finger's gap between the fender wells and the 195/50/15 Kumhos.
So my alignment settings after 2 years looked decent, but I noticed two things:
- Left front toe was out at .25 degrees
- Rear camber was much more than I'd have normally allowed, and I was puzzled at how I let that slip 2 years ago
When I align one of our wagons (or any Honda really) I always start with camber adjustments, then rear toe, then finally front toe.
I took one look at my rear toe adjustment arms/slides and I immediately realized why I had left the camber so negative:
MY REAR TOE ADJUSTERS WERE MAXED ALL THE WAY IN ALREADY, AND TOE WAS JUST IN SPEC
This means that any further corrections in camber would have an adverse affect on my toe readings that much more, and I'd no longer be able to even come close to having in-spec toe with the stock toe arms.
I set the toe all around, and left the camber as-was and decided it'd be too much trouble to try and sort out the rear camber/toe thing, and that "in the green" toe would be okay even with the extra negative camber.
I got the car off the rack, drove it home, and during my drive I noticed my steering wheels was off center AGAIN.
So the next morning at 6:30am I put my car back on the alignment rack, and to my astonishment my left front toe was yet again off at .25 degrees toe out. I knew I'd set it to perfect 0, so something else had to be wrong.
LOOSE LEFT OUTER TIE ROD <--- loose as in the ball joint in the end of it had excessive play, as in .25 degrees each way
Waah waah waah...no wonder I've been getting uneven tire wear, and an off center steering wheel.
Two brand new OEM outer tie rods later, I'm back on the alignment rack, and I decide that -1.7 degrees of rear camber combined with maxed in toe adjusters just won't cut it any more. I add enough shims to bring the camber back to within-range specs at about -1.2 degrees, and this time I'm going to swap out my toe arms for shorter ones. This would allow the adjustment range I needed, since the stock arms were now "too long" to allow for any more inwards toe adjustments. Here is an illustration to show you guys what I mean:
#7 in this pic is what I'm referring to as the "toe arm" - you loosen a bolt (#29) that holds it into a slot in the chassis, and it allows the front of the trailing arm to slide in or out into the correct position for good toe readings, then you lock it into place by tightening the bolt.
I needed my trailing arm to go IN more than the slot and/or toe arm were allowing, which meant I needed shorter toe arms.
Well it just so happens that 92-95 Civic toe arms are shorter - in fact nearly the exact amount shorter I need to get the #29 bolt in the center of my toe adjuster slots and have the ideal rear toe of .08 degrees!
So I started the easy task of swapping out those toe arms, when I realized:
MY TRAILING ARM BUSHINGS WERE TOTALLY ROTTED OUT AND COMING APART
The hits keep on coming with this friggin thing!
So I've got new rear trailing arms (OEM style rubber, one piece) coming tomorrow. I'll let you all know how my final standings come out. Hopefully the toe arms aren't too short or else I'm pretty much screwed. I'd have to buy adjustable toe arms from SPC, which I don't have the funds for currently.
CLIFF NOTES:
If you own a Civic wagon that is lowered, and you want to get the rear camber within specs (max allowable rear camber is like -1.2 degrees) then be prepared to swap out your toe arms too, because once you correct the camber to such extremes the toe adjusters get maxed "in" and it's far worse to ride with bad toe than it is camber.
I've always prided (is that a word?) on my ability to have lowered cars, but still get very even tire wear. I'm not one of those people who preaches about camber kits, and close to zero camber (ruins handling) but I'm also not one to believe that -3 degrees of camber is okay provided you have good toe settings. Extreme amounts of camber can still ruin tires. It just makes any toe issues that much more exaggerated, and leaves little/no room for error.
Well I noticed a month or so ago that my tires had the dreaded inside edge wear, and it was time for new tires. My wheels are reverse-mount, meaning the tires have to be mounted face down, and our machine at work doesn't do this because the special adapters for it are broken.
While my wheels were getting new tires mounted on them I decided I'd realign my car on some borrowed steelies.
Little did I know a "simple alignment" was going to be a can of worms.
I figured 2 years of daily driving, and that slightly off centered (I mean almost not noticeable) steering wheel combined with the inside edge wear warranted an alignment.
So here's a few reference pics of my wagon - NOT slammed, but certainly much lower than stock:
It rides at about a finger's gap between the fender wells and the 195/50/15 Kumhos.
So my alignment settings after 2 years looked decent, but I noticed two things:
- Left front toe was out at .25 degrees
- Rear camber was much more than I'd have normally allowed, and I was puzzled at how I let that slip 2 years ago
When I align one of our wagons (or any Honda really) I always start with camber adjustments, then rear toe, then finally front toe.
I took one look at my rear toe adjustment arms/slides and I immediately realized why I had left the camber so negative:
MY REAR TOE ADJUSTERS WERE MAXED ALL THE WAY IN ALREADY, AND TOE WAS JUST IN SPEC
This means that any further corrections in camber would have an adverse affect on my toe readings that much more, and I'd no longer be able to even come close to having in-spec toe with the stock toe arms.
I set the toe all around, and left the camber as-was and decided it'd be too much trouble to try and sort out the rear camber/toe thing, and that "in the green" toe would be okay even with the extra negative camber.
I got the car off the rack, drove it home, and during my drive I noticed my steering wheels was off center AGAIN.
So the next morning at 6:30am I put my car back on the alignment rack, and to my astonishment my left front toe was yet again off at .25 degrees toe out. I knew I'd set it to perfect 0, so something else had to be wrong.
LOOSE LEFT OUTER TIE ROD <--- loose as in the ball joint in the end of it had excessive play, as in .25 degrees each way
Waah waah waah...no wonder I've been getting uneven tire wear, and an off center steering wheel.
Two brand new OEM outer tie rods later, I'm back on the alignment rack, and I decide that -1.7 degrees of rear camber combined with maxed in toe adjusters just won't cut it any more. I add enough shims to bring the camber back to within-range specs at about -1.2 degrees, and this time I'm going to swap out my toe arms for shorter ones. This would allow the adjustment range I needed, since the stock arms were now "too long" to allow for any more inwards toe adjustments. Here is an illustration to show you guys what I mean:
#7 in this pic is what I'm referring to as the "toe arm" - you loosen a bolt (#29) that holds it into a slot in the chassis, and it allows the front of the trailing arm to slide in or out into the correct position for good toe readings, then you lock it into place by tightening the bolt.
I needed my trailing arm to go IN more than the slot and/or toe arm were allowing, which meant I needed shorter toe arms.
Well it just so happens that 92-95 Civic toe arms are shorter - in fact nearly the exact amount shorter I need to get the #29 bolt in the center of my toe adjuster slots and have the ideal rear toe of .08 degrees!
So I started the easy task of swapping out those toe arms, when I realized:
MY TRAILING ARM BUSHINGS WERE TOTALLY ROTTED OUT AND COMING APART
The hits keep on coming with this friggin thing!
So I've got new rear trailing arms (OEM style rubber, one piece) coming tomorrow. I'll let you all know how my final standings come out. Hopefully the toe arms aren't too short or else I'm pretty much screwed. I'd have to buy adjustable toe arms from SPC, which I don't have the funds for currently.
CLIFF NOTES:
If you own a Civic wagon that is lowered, and you want to get the rear camber within specs (max allowable rear camber is like -1.2 degrees) then be prepared to swap out your toe arms too, because once you correct the camber to such extremes the toe adjusters get maxed "in" and it's far worse to ride with bad toe than it is camber.
Comments
voting, NOT a can of Wormmms...
EG toe arms are too short, so I am forced to buy an aftermarket adjustable toe link set-up. Adjustable toe links allow much greater toe adjustments since the arms can be made much longer or shorter than stock arms.
I posted a topic on Honda-Tech about it, but I'll mirror some of it here.
Now I've got the SPC toe kits seen here on my 1992 Civic hatch - $175.00:
They are a touch expensive for me right now. House note is due, and we've got a vacation to pay for, so I'm also looking at these SPC toe kits - $135.00
I did some more research and found some other options:
Blox rear toe kits - $79.00
...and Megan Racing rear toe kits - $105.00
...and Password JDM toe links - ??? Can't find them on the site any more?!
I know one thing that sets the red/gold SPC kits apart (and the PW JDM if still available), and it's probably worth the extra $$$, and that's spherical bearings vs. conventional bushings. I'm a little gunshy about grabbing up cheapo Blox/Megan parts due to likely crappy ass bushings, but again right now I'm hurting on funds.
...and for those still trying to visualize how these toe kits install here's a few pics for reference:
Before performing an alignment, you jack the wheels off the ground, grasp them first top and bottom and then side to side and give them a good shake to make sure there's no play in the wheel bearing, lca bushings, or ball joints.
The toe arm doesn't take much load so I wouldn't sweat it too much. I wouldn't want the second one on my car, but I had a generic set on my EG daily driven for about 4 years with no trouble and the alignment shops never gave me any grief about it. When I installed them, I mounted them as far to the inside of the car as possible. This makes the arm as long as possible so it swings on a longer arc, resulting in less toe change as the wheel goes up and down. This probably makes no quantifiable difference, but you have to choose a spot to tighten that bolt and you want it consistent side to side, so that was my reasoning.
I also recommend the Energy Suspension and the Prothane rear trailing arm bushings. I have used one or the other on all of my Hondas and have never have issues with them. Makes the rear suspension feel way better and they even handle noticeably better.
I got an alignment after I did the Bswap as I had to change the Tie Rod ends to EF9 ones and the guy who did it told me "it doesnt measure up very good" obviously referring to the -3degrees front camber and -3.7degrees rear camber
I am looking at using Blox/Toser (same thing from the same factory just different name) Rear Camber Arms and Toe arms. Ingalls front camber adjusters and some Mugen RTA bushes. Not cheap but worth it IMO. Though I will be aiming for around -2.5degrees front camber and -2.0degrees rear camber to suit my wheel choice
if i may chime in here.
the blox rear toe kits are too short so i am currently workign with a guy @ BLOX to fix the issue. basically the center threaded rod is too short.
in addition i replaced the RTA bushing with the block spherical bushing and i think its a great product but dont put it into a car that you drive more frequent that a daily driver. the road noise is too loud and it sounds like somthing is clunking around. (just my .02)
i am currently trying to straighten my alignment issues out but once i get the new rods from blox and i get my new front upper ball joints to fix the camber in the front i will post many specs..
now its not that great b/c of how bad the car's situation is. no camber adjusters in the front. stock traction bar (which i think the bushings are shot; or my rack needs to be rebuild b/c there is hella noise up front) blox rear camber toe and RTA spherical bushing. omni power coilovers and function 7 control arms. the car isnt lowered yet either..
hope this helps
If you get Blox to produce some toe kits to better fit the wagons, then I would be interested in a set. Please do keeps us informed of your progress.