*PARTIALLY SOLVED!* Vibration under braking and 55+mph

quarters

Over the last 1.5 years the wagon has had a brake shake and highway shake. it's gotten to the point where it can't be ignored.

symptoms: upon cold startup it doesn't shake to badly, very little until 60mph. the more you drive, the worse it gets, to the point where at the end of a 1hr drive i won't go over 55mph because it shakes to bad. during normal braking the shake is fairly pronounced to the point where i just try and downshift as much as possible. if i get on the brake pedal a bit aggressively the shake is not very pronounced at all.

my steering rack was making all kinds of noises, i know the rack-end bushing was toasted. yesterday i picked up a steering rack at the u-pick for $50 with decent tie rods on it. i put it in and now all my clunks and noises are gone but the shakes remain. the rotors, calipers, pads are new so i know it's not that for braking.

so i guess all it can be is tires. but will tires cause wheel shake under braking? i'm going to rotate the tires around today and see if that makes any difference. could a very bad alignment cause shakes? anyone ever experience this before?

Kroete

I've got the same problem with my '86 Shuttle and I think it'll be better with now bushings. I'll change tham completely during the summer. Hope it would be better than.

progress

Quarters, I've got similar shakes at speeds higher than 55mph. Just gets worse after that too. I'm thinking that along with my fubar'd rear diff mount and the macguyvering we did to keep it in place, my tires are also causing the shaking. My dad bought this tire mounting thing from harbour freight and he's installed all my tires on my rt4wd rims. I'm guessing they are way out of balance. My steering rack is also loose. Need to get that fixed.

quarters

i was looking closely today and 2 of the tires have no weights on them, 2 of them do. 1 in front and 1 in back. i think i might rotate that other one with a weight to the front and see what comes of it.

RockVegas

Two have no weights at all? Seems you would want to take those wheels to get balanced before anything else.

Is your camber off?

bmotors

thats what happened to my other car ...at high speeds alot off vibration... got all my tires balanced and actually replaced two of them....no more problem.....as far as vibration while braking possible warped rotors??

RockVegas

bmotors wrote:

as far as vibration while braking possible warped rotors??

Yeah, is it what you would really call 'vibrating' or 'pulsing'?

progress

Got home today after a bitch of a ride home from work. From 55 to 70 mph, the whole car shook like a mofo! It felt as if I was going to be sitting in my seat on the highway just as my wagon shook itself apart! At one point, I thought perhaps my RT4WD re-engaged itself somehow so I tried testing it out on some gravel roads but it didn't feel like the rear was kicking in. A quick check under the hood confirmed it was sitll disengaged. Got home and switched out the rear tires for another pair I have, in the rain no less, and took it out for a test drive. Still shook like crazy. Thank God I can change tires quickly!

I will report in the morning. I'm thinking I will try to get my tires balanced and maybe an alignment as well over the weekend to see if that will fix things.

UPDATE:
Switched the tires i took off from the back to the front and drove to ork this morning. Let me tell you, if i as a girl, my ride into work would be that much more enjoyable!

Just got to thinking... the wagon had been sitting for a while. Could the tires all have flat spots? Other than buying new tires, can these be fixed? And wouldn't flat spots be noticeable at speeds below 20mph like when your skateboard wheels get flat spots from big powerslides?

I may have to get new tires.. any inexpensive suggestions?

quarters

changed the rotors this morning, no change.

progress

quarters wrote:

changed the rotors this morning, no change.

That sucks quarters! Hope you figure it out soon.What else do you think it is? I'm resorting to driving my parents' automatic Geo Prism to work tomorrow so my dad can take a look at it when he gets home from work. He's thinking tie rods etc. Wouldn't the steering wheel shake back and forth though with such problems? Mine doesn't seem to at all. I still think it's the wheels needing balancing. Maybe if I switch all my wheels for the ones on the non-running 94 Accord sitting in our yard. Hmmm, will wheels from a 94 Accord fit? They are 4 lug but I'm not sure if they are 4x100 or 4x114 or whatever that measurement is. I guess I can take em off and see if they fit.

RockVegas

If you changed the rotors and it didnt help, then I'd check for cupping in the tires. It may not be visible though. Maybe try putting the back tires on the front and see if there's a slight change?

yellowmikebike

'94 Accord is 4x114.3 bolt pattern not 4x100

quarters

i rotated the tires as well, it didn't do anything. the only thing left that I KNOW is wrong is the alignment, it needs to go in for one since doing the steering rack.

quarters

i've been playing around some more with the car...

i swapped over to my winter tires thinking maybe it was the tires, no difference.
swapped to another set of rotors, no difference.
did a DIY alignment, no difference.
new rotors, pads, calipers
no torn cv boots, axles are both less than 40,000
replaced steering rack with used unit. there does not appear to be any play at the rack end bushing like my old one did.

if i'm going at highway speed and ever so gently tap the brakes, the wheel shakes quite badly, press brakes harder and it goes away until i reach 60kmh and then it shakes all the way down to a stop, it's not warped rotors either... i know what that feels like.

so i go back up to highway speed and pull the ebrake a bit and the back end starts to shake around. so my drums must be warped right??

parts that NEED replacing as a fact:
-right front lower ball joint (has a fair amount of up and down play)
-left front upper ball joint (makes noises)
-rear brake drums, warped?

i am getting a shop to do an alignment on monday, but i suspect no change.
obviously we can't fully trouble shoot this until all the above parts are changed... but anyone have any other ideas.

when i get up to 100kmh it's like the front end gets a bit of a rhythmic vibration. it get's SLIGHTLY worse when i turn left.

another thought... can a wheel bearing cause this? the bearing doesn't make any noise but maybe?

help me! i have to make a 2100km drive in a month and i NEED this sorted before then. I'm going to order new parts this weekend and hopefully they are here by next friday.

Jaker

The bad balljoints could be letting the wheel wag around at speed. Braking can exacerbate it, and you are likely getting that on again off again feeling from the wheel moving around under braking. I cannot say for sure why it is not consistant. I would not even bother getting the alignment until the parts have been changed. It is a waste of time and money. The wheel must be held solidly for an alignment to be useful. Your toasted balljoints will not let that happen.

quarters

went to the wrecker yesterday and picked up a complete hub with a good ball joint and put on a new tie rod end. t.

put on new rear drums, braking vibration solved.
i know the old drums where extremely worn because i had to back-off my brake shoes 1/4" to fit the new drums!!! that is a lot! i adjusted my rear shoes so that i had to tap the drum back on with a hammer, it wouldn't slide on by hand. now, the brake pedal feel is instant and strong. ebrake takes 5 clicks to fully engage, nice. 450,000kms on chassis and good for many more... roll on wagon, roll on.

wagodizzle

thats good news

quarters

So after my alignment it was still pulling to the left. I went back to the shop and they switched the front tires around and now it pulls to the right!! At home I switch the front tires to the rear and it pulls to the left, switch the fronts around and it pulls to the right. Is it possible that my 1 year old tires are all shot!? wtf is going on. i can feel a wobble start at 60kmh and at 90+kmh the car is almost undriveable.

wagodizzle

are all the tires the exact same brand and model?
also, is the tire pressure all the same and at the right setting?
what brand tires are you using? are shittz brand may well cause this.
have the tires been balanced correctly? i once had to take my wheels back THREE times before the dipshits finally got it somewhat well balanced...

any dents in any of the wheels rims? my friend had a steelie with a hefty dent in it and it vibrated the car like none-other

quarters

tires:

yes, cheap Motomaster SE tires. the first review i read says he had to get 2 new ones because they became 'rotationally uneven'
http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045/003 ... eviews.htm
175/70/13
all the same size, all bought new at the same time.
wheels are aluminum 13" off early model civic 1500S. I see no visible dents/cracks.
i tried playing with the psi's have them all at 34psi (max tire pressure 44psi)


It would appear that it takes a miracle for Canadian Tire to honor their warranty on tires.

Darren

Hmm, gleaming review for Crappy Tire (Canadian Tire for you Yanks )

I guess going to a proper tire shop would be your best bet now...

quarters

just got off the phone with Canadian Tire, check it out at 9:30 tomorrow. I'm going to fight for a warranty. Any shop i take it too will try to make me buy new tires. which i can't afford right now.

Jaker

Your issues from before could have lead to the current condition of your 1 year old tires. A bad unbalance, wether caused by bad balljoints, bad steering rack or bad alignment could allow the tire to move in ways that it is not designed to, leading to it becoming "out of round". I know you didn't want to hear this, but it's a very real possibility.

quarters

oh i don't mind if i gotta get different tires, i just don't want that to NOT be the problem. which seems to be the case 100% of the time so far.

quarters

changed front 2 tires. NO F*CKING DIFFERENCE!!!!!!! every piece of rotational mass has been changed except the axles, no torn boots. I'm going to set this f*cking car on fire and leave it on the side of the road.

car vibrates at 90+kmh almost to the point where it is not drivable. rim & tire change did nothing, changing the steering rack helped push the vibration from 80khm to 90. both knuckles where changed (with used ones), 2 shops have said the suspension looks tight, alignment done last week. one shop said the driver side tie rod has a tiny bit of play, but if they were able to do an alignment then it wasn't bad.

wagodizzle

yours is a RT right?
dont the rear drive shaft mounts go bad and cause this vibration? i have read some posts here before about that happening.

i would check the mounts for it...

Haydz

I think his is FWD.

quarters

update:

took it back to the same shop as yesterday and pretty much had a mechanic handed to me and started telling him what to do.

'put the car on the hoist and spin the wheels up to 100kmh'
'uuh ok'

so they do it and both are clearly wobbly.

'take the wheels off and spin it up again.'
'uuh ok.'

no vibration at all. everything is smooth as butter.

'ok so balance those tires again!'
'uuh ok."

one now spins perfectly round. the right hand one still wobbles. they said their balancer said it was balanced and that was the absolute best they could do. the wagon is pretty good now, but still by no means is it as it should be. my next step is going to be finding a shop with a 'road force balancing machine'. they are expensive and most tire shops in small towns do not have them. the owner of the shop told me the nearest road force balancer was about an hour away.

this means that my winter rims/tires are also out of balance. so in my diagnostics i got screwed over by *3* different sets of rims/tires being out of balance. i was %100 certain it wasn't the tires until they spun it up to 100kmh without the wheels on and it was smooth. I'll get a road force balance and see what happens.

thanks for all the input so far. this thread is also taking place on honda-tech.com.
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?p= ... st39183119
no offence to everyone here, but i felt like i had exhausted the wagon boards knowledge base. the honda-tech guys are usually pricks... but you can't compete with the amount of knowledge on that board. i must have been a hardcore honda-tech nut at one point to have racked up 500+ posts.

quarters

also noticed today that my axles to not have those rubber dampening rings on the middle of the shaft. that probably isn't helping.

yellowmikebike

Cheapy aftermarket driveshafts are notorious for vibration and problems... I would try to get new (probably will be from China) or even better, factory oe axles (used or new, honda offers great Reman ones). I have seen MANY rebuilt/reman aftermarket axles clicking, stiff or broken right out of the box. They also don't test them for vibrations, being bent or otherwise not right. They also make a bigger hole/seat in the previously hardened shaft/joint for bigger round bearings, thus they usually don't last nearly as long.

Also, had a guy with a vibration problem where the radius rod bushings were put in his car BACKWARDS! He even put new ones in himself again backwards. It looks like they go cone/tapered part into the crossmember, but that is incorrect!!! They are installed the other way. Look in a Service Manual or a parts illustration for a picture of proper installation. I would check those, especially if someone else did the 'suspension rebuild' on your car. It is possible that they looked logically at the bushings and installed them backwards!!!!

quarters

good one, i'll look into that.