Springrates....

Aarron_MAarron_M Band Wagon
in Suspension, Braking & Wheels
Springrates....what's the lowest acceptable rates for our RT4WD's? I've heard they have to be quite a bit higher than normal Civic rates. What happens if we choose a normal Civic application? Is it just bouncier?

What coilovers have applications specific for our wagons? If I choose DA coilovers would they have a higher rate than an EF application?

Comments

  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    I've been reading up a lot on suspension for the 4WD RT, on HCW and other forums etc, and would just like to follow up a few things im concerned about. So this is all about the 4WD, nothing else.

    If you use suspension from any other 4G, the shocks won't last as long due to the extra weight??

    To lower a 4WD you can use 2WD springs on the RT shocks, is there any others? I just threw away a set and am now considering what to do about a moderate drop.

    I can't seem to find any 4WD specific Wagon aftermarket shocks or springs, it's driving me mad! Although I have come across OEM spec 2WD springs which are around £120/$180. Will the shocks be ok with these springs?

    Any comments welcome.

    Thanks
  • Aarron_MAarron_M Band Wagon
    Are coilovers out of your budget? PIC select or PIC apex's(google them) have specific heavier rates for wagons. They seem to be the only ones I can find. I've heard good things about the company, but no one from on here seems to have heard of them. I'm sure Eibach can make some "custom" spring rates if you inquired with them.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    There are none. It's not the shock length that is different, the spring perch is lower on the shock body. The spring is longer than a normal hatch spring though to compensate for the lower perch.

    Just use coilovers, stick with the lower springrates and install a rear sway bar.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    Yes coilovers are out of my budget.

    What coilovers can be used on a 4WD? As I want the shocks to last.

    Rear sway bar?? Do you mean anti roll bar?


    Thanks guys
  • ragenasianragenasian Moderator
    There are a lot of options for coilovers on our wagons. Right now I am running Tein Type HE's on my wagon which were from a CRX. I also have a set of Ksports for it.

    Haydz is talking about the anti-roll bar. :wink:
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    ragenasian wrote:
    There are a lot of options for coilovers on our wagons. Right now I am running Tein Type HE's on my wagon which were from a CRX. I also have a set of Ksports for it.

    Haydz is talking about the anti-roll bar. :wink:

    But is it wise to use coilovers they aren't made for the Wagon/RT? As they will be made for a lot less weight. Wagon's are at least 400-600kg heavier than a CRX for example.
  • skinnyskinny Senior Wagonist
    I got a "special set" of skunk2 coil overs for 180 USD. truth be told their neon springs that Speed Concepts never sold. They offered me many different spring rates and I went with 10k kilogram spings. Normal civics use 6k fronts 4k rears. I daily drive my RT and have had no problems. I should add that my daily drivin is, to and from work 3-5 days a week, 4x4ing, hitting empty parking lots and acting like a crazy f*ck, and just good old skylarking :lol: They still have MANY sets and if you need one of us oregonians can get and send you a set. Hope that helps.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    skinny wrote:
    I got a "special set" of skunk2 coil overs for 180 USD. truth be told their neon springs that Speed Concepts never sold. They offered me many different spring rates and I went with 10k kilogram spings. Normal civics use 6k fronts 4k rears. I daily drive my RT and have had no problems. I should add that my daily drivin is, to and from work 3-5 days a week, 4x4ing, hitting empty parking lots and acting like a crazy f*ck, and just good old skylarking :lol: They still have MANY sets and if you need one of us oregonians can get and send you a set. Hope that helps.

    special set?

    any more info please? i could well be interested. thanks
  • Aarron_MAarron_M Band Wagon
    Those PIC's are specific for the wagons. You just need higher springrates. There is a vendor on HT, search for PIC select. PM him, very cool.
  • JakerJaker familEE
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    But is it wise to use coilovers they aren't made for the Wagon/RT? As they will be made for a lot less weight. Wagon's are at least 400-600kg heavier than a CRX for example.

    I think that is a BIT of an exaggeration. My 1990 FWD Wagon with a B20 motor and B series transmission (about 40kg heavier than the D series setup) with some minor weight reduction weighed just under 980 kg, and my 1989 Civic hatchback with a D series drivetrain and the same weight reduction (class rules limited in both cases) weighed 886 kg.
  • skinnyskinny Senior Wagonist
    skinny wrote:
    truth be told their neon springs that Speed Concepts never sold..


    I was alittle hesitant to buy them but they bolted in just fine and I love them. I say special cause there for a dodge, and there way heavier then normal civic springs.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    Aarron_M wrote:
    Those PIC's are specific for the wagons. You just need higher springrates. There is a vendor on HT, search for PIC select. PM him, very cool.

    ok cool, ill give him a shout

    EDIT:
    i can only find PIC Performance ??
    Jaker wrote:
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    But is it wise to use coilovers they aren't made for the Wagon/RT? As they will be made for a lot less weight. Wagon's are at least 400-600kg heavier than a CRX for example.

    I think that is a BIT of an exaggeration. My 1990 FWD Wagon with a B20 motor and B series transmission (about 40kg heavier than the D series setup) with some minor weight reduction weighed just under 980 kg, and my 1989 Civic hatchback with a D series drivetrain and the same weight reduction (class rules limited in both cases) weighed 886 kg.

    hmmm
    on the chassis plate on the 1.4 i had it said 1440kg, the RT sitting behind me says it weighs 1540kg...???
  • JakerJaker familEE
    Those are the GVWR (Gross Vehicular Weight Rating). This is the max weight that the components on the vehicle (tires, wheel bearings, shock, springs, brakes, etc...) are designed to carry. This is based on the vehicle curb weight (no cargo or passengers) plus a specific weight per passenger, a certain amount of cargo, full tank of petrol, etc... All these figures used to be listed in the Helms Honda shop manuals, but it's been a while since I've come across the figures.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    Jaker wrote:
    Those are the GVWR (Gross Vehicular Weight Rating). This is the max weight that the components on the vehicle (tires, wheel bearings, shock, springs, brakes, etc...) are designed to carry. This is based on the vehicle curb weight (no cargo or passengers) plus a specific weight per passenger, a certain amount of cargo, full tank of petrol, etc... All these figures used to be listed in the Helms Honda shop manuals, but it's been a while since I've come across the figures.

    cool thanks


    ill check the logbooks, WHEN they arrive :roll: - been 4 weeks now
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    My fully optioned INTRAC was 1120KG without me inside but but half a tank of petrol, all running etc.

    That is so close to EG weight that it wouldn't be worth acquiring higher springrates, which is why i suggested countering that with a rear sway bar.

    I re-read the existing articles on all of this and they are poorly written and confusing so i'll open this back up for discussion. If someone wants to make a comprehensive RT4WD Suspension Guide then feel free. :)
  • Aarron_MAarron_M Band Wagon
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    EDIT:
    i can only find PIC Performance ??

    That's the one. They're out of stock on the Apex's right now, but have the Select's in stock.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    Haydz wrote:
    My fully optioned INTRAC was 1120KG without me inside but but half a tank of petrol, all running etc.

    That is so close to EG weight that it wouldn't be worth acquiring higher springrates, which is why i suggested countering that with a rear sway bar.

    I re-read the existing articles on all of this and they are poorly written and confusing so i'll open this back up for discussion. If someone wants to make a comprehensive RT4WD Suspension Guide then feel free. :)

    ah-ha!!! so could I use EG shocks/springs? (i know i will need front forks too). so 4G civic/CRX mk2 springs will drop the car too much and unevenly?

    the sticky's are ok, but yeh a little confusing lol

    whats an INTRAC??
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    whats an INTRAC??

    viewtopic.php?t=2766

    :)
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    I run the full Progress coilovers on my wagon that were specific for my 91 Integra sedan and love the setup. Springrates are 350f and 250r.

    I did a lot of custom coilover setups when I worked at a speedshop. Ive installed Civic coilovers on Hyundais, Kias, Corollas, you name it. We basically just went off of car weights. If it was for a bigger/heavier car, we used Accord coilovers. Every setup had positive results and all owners were really happy as they couldnt find stuff for their car. This is gonna be a similar situation. Theres no real "to low" of springrate, but its going to be a personal preference. Riding bouncy is generally a result of being lowered inproperly and riding on the bumpstops.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    shenrie wrote:
    I run the full Progress coilovers on my wagon that were specific for my 91 Integra sedan and love the setup. Springrates are 350f and 250r.

    I did a lot of custom coilover setups when I worked at a speedshop. Ive installed Civic coilovers on Hyundais, Kias, Corollas, you name it. We basically just went off of car weights. If it was for a bigger/heavier car, we used Accord coilovers. Every setup had positive results and all owners were really happy as they couldnt find stuff for their car. This is gonna be a similar situation. Theres no real "to low" of springrate, but its going to be a personal preference. Riding bouncy is generally a result of being lowered inproperly and riding on the bumpstops.

    so would you recommend DA springs on OEM shocks?
    do they fit EE shocks, and would i buy aftermarket ones for a DA?

    Im just looking for a spring swop, coilovers i will get later on if and when I need to.

    you seem to be the one to ask these questions lol

    thanks

    marc
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    Springrates are a personal preference. That being said, the extra weight of the RT4WD's can either make the car ride better or worse depending on your setup. Unknown springs from ebay have caused me more grief than anything else and have personally swapped out more than one pair of ebay coilovers for cut stocker springs with very happy customers.

    My Integra weighed in about 3k with me in it and a full tank of gas. Im a fatass at 220, so that puts tha car just shy of 2800. The RT's weigh in at 2500 (or so Ive read). So IMHO the DA springs are a good fit. The hatch/crx both dabble right about 2k (if I remember right), so if you think about it, the springrates for teh Integra are a closer fit than the other EF chasis' (no idea on EF sedan rates, but nobody offers anything specific for the sedan anyway). However, DA struts are NOT a good fit. They are pretty tall as far as stock struts go. I used KYB GR2 specifically for the EF sedan (and cut springs) for my d-wagon and am very happy with the ride. I belive the rear CRX strut is shorter, but I have not confirmed that yet.

    If it were me and I was looking for the cheapest way to lower a RT (without cutting springs) Id go with either springs from the DA (will ride a little stiffer depending on brand) or some hatch springs (will more than likley ride softer depending on brand).
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    shenrie wrote:
    If it were me and I was looking for the cheapest way to lower a RT (without cutting springs) Id go with either springs from the DA (will ride a little stiffer depending on brand) or some hatch springs (will more than likley ride softer depending on brand).

    excellent, thats what i was after

    no way am I cutting any springs!

    so do the DA springs fit the OEM shocks? what model DA should I get the springs for i do go ahead with that? 1.6 ones?

    thanks for your help
  • skinnyskinny Senior Wagonist
    If you wanna pay for shipping I will give you my stock springs that were cut :lol: They dumped the wagon so much that I put the skunk2's in and never looked back.
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    Marc_EE9 wrote:

    excellent, thats what i was after

    no way am I cutting any springs!

    so do the DA springs fit the OEM shocks? what model DA should I get the springs for i do go ahead with that? 1.6 ones?

    thanks for your help

    Well, Im by no means the beall/endall of suspension info. A lot of people have voiced their opinions on these forums and what they have had luck with so you should definatly read up on the quicklinks provided. The ride height will vary so it will be a personal preference too. I havent personally put lowering springs from an Integra on a wagon. Its always been coilover setups from Integras, so definatly do your research.

    But ya, the DA's (bad slang as most 1st and 2nd generation Integras are technically DA's till the 3rd gens came out) which were 90-93 Integras here in USAville.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    shenrie wrote:
    Marc_EE9 wrote:

    excellent, thats what i was after

    no way am I cutting any springs!

    so do the DA springs fit the OEM shocks? what model DA should I get the springs for i do go ahead with that? 1.6 ones?

    thanks for your help

    Well, Im by no means the beall/endall of suspension info. A lot of people have voiced their opinions on these forums and what they have had luck with so you should definatly read up on the quicklinks provided. The ride height will vary so it will be a personal preference too. I havent personally put lowering springs from an Integra on a wagon. Its always been coilover setups from Integras, so definatly do your research.

    But ya, the DA's (bad slang as most 1st and 2nd generation Integras are technically DA's till the 3rd gens came out) which were 90-93 Integras here in USAville.


    i have read up, and this thread is for springs for Wagon's, as other threads dont cover it so much. JUST springs

    still no answer to my question: do DA springs fit EE4/RT shocks? for what model DA springs should i get? 1.6, 1.8..???
    here in the UK i cant find any aftermarket springs for a DA integra. :(

    im just looking for a moderate drop, no more than 30mm really, on springs on OEM shocks


    thanks
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    Sorry, yes the springs will fit on the struts, but I have no idea as to how the car will sit since the RT struts have the perches lower than the others in the EF lineup. You might end up lower than you want to be playing with RT struts.

    Also, all of our 90-93 Integras had the 1.8 other than the 92-93 GSR which had the 1.7 (basically a b16). The earlier 1.6 Integras didnt have front springs, they had torsion bars with regular springs in the rear.

    Heres a thought. Maybe jsut get a set of stock hatch springs and install them on the RT struts. I think the RT perches are around 2" lower (anyone confirm?), so a set of regular springs would actully lower the car if Im thinking straight (just got back from 5 daze of camping).
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    shenrie wrote:
    Sorry, yes the springs will fit on the struts, but I have no idea as to how the car will sit since the RT struts have the perches lower than the others in the EF lineup. You might end up lower than you want to be playing with RT struts.

    Also, all of our 90-93 Integras had the 1.8 other than the 92-93 GSR which had the 1.7 (basically a b16). The earlier 1.6 Integras didnt have front springs, they had torsion bars with regular springs in the rear.

    Heres a thought. Maybe jsut get a set of stock hatch springs and install them on the RT struts. I think the RT perches are around 2" lower (anyone confirm?), so a set of regular springs would actully lower the car if Im thinking straight (just got back from 5 daze of camping).

    the JDM DA6 has a B16, thats the one i was talking about

    stock hatch springs will fit, but i thought only shuttle springs were wise to put on them? so i read on here anyway. i have a set of CRX 1.5X springs...? and Civic/CRX Si Eibach springs..?
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    stock hatch springs will fit, but i thought only shuttle springs were wise to put on them? so i read on here anyway. i have a set of CRX 1.5X springs...? and Civic/CRX Si Eibach springs..?

    I didnt know that. I dont understand either. Ill have to go read bout it. Sorry to mislead man.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    I suggest you look at top hats if you are worried about shock life.
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    As far as the DA springs.It won't lower the Wgn & you still need to cut springs..Read this link under,"Stiffer Springs on Wagon Shocks(stock height or slightly higher)":
    viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4390
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