est. hp for '86-87 d16a1 w/list of mods

i know it comes stock with 113 hp, i was thinking about putting in blacktop cams, aem cam gears, custom intake, header, 2" exhaust, venom intake manifold, tb and some bigger injectors and a fuel rail. any guesses as to what this setup would yield hp wise, properly tuned of course...

Comments

  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    I think you'd need the 84-87 ZC cams, to my knowledge the blacktop ones don't fit... otherwise sounds good but you need to consider what your application is i.e street driving, track/autocrosss, drag etc.. each require a different setup..

    In terms of the larger injectors, i don't think you'd need those unless you went for forced induction or a rebuild of the bottom end, the stock injectors yield some good results for mild NA setup that you are looking for.

    As for the throttle body, you need to consider that there is such a thing as 'too big'.. i think its velocity versus flow and depending on cam specs and and the ammount of fuel etc, it might not suck as hard as it would with a smaller throttle body.

    What do you have in mind for tuning? You could use an SAFC (or VAFC?) piggy-back, or go completely aftermarket and have room for improvement later on.. As you said it would have to be properly tuned, preferably with it on a dyno.

    These mods should yield some good results, maybe you should consider a resurfaced flywheel and a stronger clutch to backup the setup?

    Its hard to estimate the final output due to every engine being different i.e age, wear, tuning, grounding etc. but i would say you might be poking at 25-35bhp extra.. (total stab in the dark) :D

    Good luck, let us know how this goes! More questions, keep 'em coming.. lol :D
  • DD Wagonist
    best bet to answer some of your questions would be thezcr.com or g1teg.org the former probably being better than the later.

    I also will be putting a D16A1 in a 86 wagon shortly... currently rebuilding a browntop with the later 88-89 pistons, and mostly stock components. AFIAK, the cams were interchangable between the years... but this is still somewhat new territory for myself.

    http://www.thezcr.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5871
  • Fresh86Fresh86 Band Wagon
    the setup will be for everyday driving, and occasional autox or 1320. i believe my car weighs 1950lbs (power nothing, no ac, no abs), and my ultimate goal for the d16a1 would be somewhere in the high to mid 14's all motor. i was thinking about picking up an lsd for the tranny as well. pacifier, a strong clutch sounds good too. i would do a flywheel, but i have heard it sacrifices a little top end. i was going to do a b16a1 swap, but now i hear hasport is discontinuing mounts and linkage for b-series 84-87 civic/rex. too bad, i live about 35 min. from hasport lol. does anyone know from what car gas tank/fuel lines i should get for the new fi setup? im guessing something like an 84-87 civic si tank.
  • akiraboyakiraboy HondaCivicWagon.com Founder
    yeah I believe davens said you need to copy the Si setup for the fuel setup
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    For the flywheel, instead of buying a new one you could just look at getting your current one resurfaced for a bit of extra grip... no weight or anything removed..
  • Some random thoughts...

    Talk to the admin at Redpepper...I believe he's done a couple a fuel injection conversions and pretty much has it down. While the hatch and CRXs are lucky enough to have fuel injected versions that ALL parts are a direct swap, our wagons did not.
    I'm just in the planning stages of fuel injecting my wagon...I was planning on running mostly 86-87 fuel injection parts in the engine bay. The only thing I'm not real sure what I'll be doing is for the fuel tank and lines. Some people have been leaving the tank alone, running a new aftermarket/generic main fuel line and then using the old main line as the return. And putting an aftermarket/generic in line electric fuel pump back there just forward of the tank (rated for the needed PSI) would give you the needed pressure in the line and to the engine.

    I understand you can run the blacktop cams if you also use the cam gears/timing belt. Since you're going with adj cam gears, you'd be fine.
    As far as what your frankenstein D16a1 will be making...
    You do know that a stock browntop ZC is rated for 135PS (133 HP) - significantly more than the D16a1 and 5hp more than the blacktop, right? Put the intake/header/exhaust on that and you'd be pushing 140-145hp.

    Also...check out Exospeeds ZC cams.

    You're in Phoenix area? If I were you, I'd leave real early one morning, make L.A. by lunch time, stop at an engine importer, hand pick an engine and then be back home that evening with a browntop ZC.
  • Fresh86Fresh86 Band Wagon
    i thought about getting a jdm zc, but some people say they are much harder to find parts for here than the 86-87 d16a1. davens, do you know where they admin from redpepper lives? if he's done multiple carb to fi swaps and has it down, i might ask him if he could do it, if he dosent live terribly far. even SRD, the premier swap place here in phx, has done only one ever, and it was an 86 crx. they said they used an 86 crx si fuel tank and lines. but just like davens said, the 84-87 wagon didnt have a fuel injected version, so herein lies the problem. just switching the main fuel line & getting an inline fuel pump sounds easy enough, if only i could locate such a write-up...
  • bigorangebigorange New Wagonist
    On my si wagon I am using the stock feed, return and gas tank. I have mounted a stock crx si fuel pump in the normal location in the back and as for the fuel lines. Yes the 85-87 si's had the larger return line but that doesnt really mean anything. It will only throw off your fuel pressure where you will need a adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Which is what I have done. I have about 5,000 miles on my swap now and have had no problem with it and it gets great gas mileage. Alot of the guys At RPR will tell you that you have to have the large return but that is inaccurate. I have a friend on RPR thats running a 86 crx hf, (with both feed and return small) and hes running a b18b1 and he gets 45 mpg. and hes running a adj. fuel P.R. So the stock lines and tank are absolutely fine. When you install the fuel pump in the rear remove the filter in that back where the plastic cover is and install the fuel pump there. Then run the wires threw the rubber grommet hole right below the driver side rear seat.

    And I also am very framiliar with the carb to si swap. It is not that difficult at all!!! You need to get a 86-87 civic si wiring harness, and then install it in your wagon. For the most part it will fit pretty well. the back harness of your wagon that runs to the tail lights and the hatch pop you will keep. The civic si harness will plug in to that harness but it will need to be repinned and the old back harness will need to have a pin and a wire added to it for the fuel pump. All the wire colors match so its very simple. Match the colors together basically. For the cluster and the dash you will need to modify the civic si dash harness but everything you need is there and there isnt that much that needs to be done to it. ALSO with the dash harness you will need to cut the plugs out of your wagon harness that go to your gauge cluster.

    For the cluster: The plugs for the cluster need to be used. There are 2 open pins in the main plug. and one dummy light is left dead. Add the efi dummy light wire ( i think is greenw/red stripe?) to the main plug that goes to that dead dummy light. Add a bulb to that empty dummy light. Then from the back side of the cluster disassemble that side where the dummy lgiht is by removeing the 2 screw on the back. Pull out the plastic plate with all the dummy lights and you will find the one for your efi light is painted black on the back side. Pateintly use wax and time to buff the paint off. you will then need to add a red peice of plastic for the dummy light (unless you want to see god everytime your fuel pump primes). Reassemble.

    everything under the hood is pretty much going to just work when the motor is in the car. Since you are going with the d16a1, you will want to grab a engine harness out of a 86-87 integra. Then plug in the integra engine harness. space is tight in the wagon by the way. the only thing thats not going to plug up is the winsheild wiper motor plug. So just go to a junk yard and find the female end on a wiper motor and make a harness that goes from the driver side of the firewall to the pass. side where its located on the wagon. also the d16a1 computer just plugs into the civic si harness.

    Thats the majority of what you need to do. This was a quick summary of what I have done minus the integra harness and d16a1. I am running a EW3 sohc 1.5 crx civic si motor.

    Like I said this is a pretty simple swap. I have never done a swap before this car and hadnt done much with wiring. But everything just matches color wise.


    I am sure I have forgotten some things but thats pretty much the most important stuff. If you have some questions please feel free to pm me or if you need pics let me know!


    Brian
  • That's good info. I don't doubt its working fine, but like anything I find on the internet, I'm going to get several first hand experienced opinions before I decide how I'm going to do my setup. We are talking about moving around a highly flammable substance at 40+ psi...I'm going to err on the side of caution.
    I've found a local company that specializes in fuel injection conversions for older "hot rods" . Some of the employees are involved in my autox group. I may see what they have to say.

    ..And it bears mentioning the distinction: bigorange is talking about converting to a vaccum advance, like the 85-87 Civic/CRX Si and 86-87 Integra. Not the electronic advance you find on later 88+ cars.
    While I concur that its the most realistic or easiest way to get the job done, the masochistic side of me wants to do a full conversion to electronic advance (obd-0 or even obd-1) so i can run a programable ecu, and then use an ITB setup my buddy has offered.

    As for the compatibility of the browntop ZC...I was unaware that there were any serious parts differences between it and the D16a1. And I mean all the wear items that you would ever need to replace....belts hoses seals sensors. I could be wrong though.

    I think Redpepper is run out of eastern Canada.
  • akiraboyakiraboy HondaCivicWagon.com Founder
    bigorange wrote:
    I have a friend on RPR thats running a 86 crx hf, (with both feed and return small) and hes running a b18b1 and he gets 45 mpg. and hes running a adj. fuel P.R.
    holy crap, thats insane :shock:
    I wish I had that kind of hp & mpg
  • Fresh86Fresh86 Band Wagon
    does anyone know where i can get a limited slip diff. for a d16a1 tranny?
    ive made a list of all the parts i think ill need or want, im sure im missing some, but anyway...

    86-87 d16a1 eng/trans/ecu from somewhere...
    86-87 civic si wiring harness
    86-87 teg rear tranny mount
    86-87 teg engine harness
    86-87 teg axle knuckles
    exospeed zc cams
    aem cam gears
    custom intake(made by the place doing the swap)
    d16a1 header
    custom 2" cat back exhaust (made by the shop)
    86-87 civic si fuel pump(or aftermarket equivalent)
    aftermarket adjustable fuel pressure regulator

    anyone have anything to add, feel free. i told the owner of the shop ( small but reputable place, they have done d and b-series swaps on 3rd gen wagons before believe it or not) about just switching the fuel pump and the fpr, he says he'd have to research it but install should be around 600-700 if he dosen't have to switch out the fuel tank/lines. hmotors says a d16a1 browntop swap costs about $850 shipped, motor trans & ecu.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    That engine/trans/ecu sounds a bit steep if thats USD.. I'd expect to pay that much in NZD for the whole lot which is about 560 USD.. But yeah... i havn't got much of an idea for costs over ther.
  • What about Nippon and Go Motors?
    Shop around.
    nd like I said earlier, I save the shipping by picking it up myself.
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