RT4WD Wagons - Modifying for Performance
Archangel007
Band Wagon
Hi Guys (and girls),
Being new to this forum (and thanks for the warm welcome!), I thought I would start a thread to try and encapsulate as much information as possible regarding the Civic RT4WD wagons and how to modify them for performance gains.
Primarily, I would like to discuss:
- Engine conversion potential, including other D- and B-series engines
- Gearbox conversion, again D- and B-series cog swappers.
- LSD's for front and rear
- Rear diff replacements, other Honda models.
- Forced induction
- Engine management and the alternative solutions
So, have at it.
Regards,
Tricky
Being new to this forum (and thanks for the warm welcome!), I thought I would start a thread to try and encapsulate as much information as possible regarding the Civic RT4WD wagons and how to modify them for performance gains.
Primarily, I would like to discuss:
- Engine conversion potential, including other D- and B-series engines
- Gearbox conversion, again D- and B-series cog swappers.
- LSD's for front and rear
- Rear diff replacements, other Honda models.
- Forced induction
- Engine management and the alternative solutions
So, have at it.
Regards,
Tricky
Comments
1. The engine conversions that are easily possible are any D-series motors. Anything else will require some fabrication of mounts and driveshaft.
2. I have no idea if any particular gears are swappable between b and d series gearboxes, but i do know that they do not bolt up to each other.
3. LSD is available for front and rear but i do belive this depends on the type of gearbox and diff you go for. My RTi has front and rear LSD standard.
4. Rear diff replacements... none directly knowen however i would be looking at the CRV and HRV rear diffs.
5. Engine dependant.
6. I'd go with OBD1 for tuning flexibility.
A few side notes..
-It seems most honda models came out 4WD/RT4WD in low volume. Civics, integras, accords, orthias etc. all have 4WD models. Which means you have 4WD options for the D, B, F and K series motors, possibly more.
-The ammount of power that the stock drivetrain can handle is uknowen but is guestimated at around 200whp.
Cheers! And hi from across the ditch.
North Island or South??
I have read with some interest the conversion done by Shenrie in terms of installing the B-series engine.
From a previous explanation, he used the B-series engine and gearbox from a CRV - correct. Did he then use the CV rear end??
From what I have heard, the pump-driven hydraulic take-up on the CRV rear diff is very slow to act - up to about 3 seconds I have heard, while the viscous coupling of the Civic was almost instantaneous, like in the order of 0.3 sec. Can you or anyone confirm this??
Another factor that I am pusuing, is the LSD's for front and rear. You have said that the LSD is standard in yours - whereas I think that mine (early '88 Civic Shuttle) does not have any. What is the codes for this on the compliance tag?
What about aftermarket LSD's for 3rd Gen Civics - I have heard OBX make one but the build quality is poor and the performance somewhat lacking (??)
What about Hondata - seems everyone is using them these days and they have great tuning flexibility.
Cheers,
Tricky
The OBX LSD is actually of a pretty good quality.A machinist friend of mine says the casing is a quality casing.It can't be machined.Drilling or grinding is alright.A friend has one in his CRX for the last 2 years.Loves it.I've driven it .It's a blast & a half.or SOOoo FUN!.So guy has 1 on the web in his 10second CRX.Basically the same design used by JDM Honda's.For street they're GREAT.Clutch types do perform better.The prob w/clutch types is you need to rebuild them every year or 2 depending on the type of racing you do.That's why Honda doesn't use the clutch type.Imagine the warranty work.
For other LSD options check:
http://www.hondacivicwagon.com/board/vi ... .php?t=103
http://www.hondacivicwagon.com/board/vi ... highlight=
and shenries b-series 4WD wagon
http://www.hondacivicwagon.com/board/vi ... .php?t=480
Two very nice rides there - very nice. Both of you must be pleased with the outcomes!
Pacifier - am I right in assuming you have the factory F&R LSD's. Is there a code for these, serial number, anything??
SiWagon - thanks for the heads up on the OBX LSD's. Do they make one for the rear as well? What are the other options out there for the rear?
One thing that I would like to know also, can you change the viscous fluid in the viscous coupling?? And if you go toa more vicous fluid, does that transfer more drive and earlier to the rear.
Ideally, I am trying to get a torque split of 70/30 or 65/35 F-R. What is the standard torque split - how much does it vary?
Cheers,
Tricky
Choices for the rear are few.1)JDM(pump type).Check my upper link.2)Phatom Grip.Kind of a second or last choice.Works with mixed results.3)Nothing from OBX(demand too low).Swap in a pumpkin from another car(like a 3-series).
Honda says ,"It's not servicable".You could disassemble it .Check out the E30 BMW 3-series around late '80s to early '90s.They had a 4WD Bimmer.I'm pretty sure they used the same design.So Rally Shop can probably help you.
Yes.Check my upper link.You may have to link again through that link.
The LSDs in my car are OE, but its a JDM Shuttle, not a USDM wagon - the gearbox, rear diff and centre coupler appear very different than the USDM models. Primary differnces i have noticed:
-4WD/2WD engagement is not on the gearbox but rather on the rear diff itself
-the centre coupler sits further forward
-the rear diff is twice the size of its USDM counterpart
I'll have a camera by thursday/friday - the digital camera is elsewhere at the moment.
North Island, i go between Tauranga and Auckland. Where in the land of oz are you?
I'm pretty sure he used the stock rear end.
People i have spoken to with Orthia's say that the reaction time is very slow, but in my personal experience in my car, the kick in is instantaneous.
As far as OBX goes i have heard many many varying opinions. You will find if you want to actually race and abuse it, that the OBX may not be up to standard but it should be fine for the street. However, in saying that, i don't know if the 2WD diffs even fit into the 4WD case. Phantomgrip make a front LSD and rear 'spring upgrade' for the USDM RT4WD but again, i have no idea if those fit the JDM boxes. :?
The problem with the JDM Shuttles is that theres not nearly enough info available on them. But yeah - thursday i will post pics of the under visor info and hopefully someone can translate the info for us.
As for Hondata... most people i know in the industry have nothing but praise for them! I'd suggest running a OBD1 P29 ECU from a NZDM Civic GTi for tuning flexibility.
Thanks for the info - great stuff.
I would like to think that the AusDM and the NZDM are in fact the same market - so we may be on a par here.
However, in saying that, I believe my engagement/disengagement lever is on the gearbox. I would be very interested to see the pictures of the diff if you can provide.
This leaves a few things open to speculation - is your viscous coupling the same as mine in terms of take-up and lock, or totally different? The front LSD diff as supplied by Honda seems the way to go - I have to spec mine and see if it is installed.
Does this mean to say yours is the pump type, with a Viscous coupling, or have I got this all screwed up? My original reference was to the CVR-type pump rear-end (it takes a long time to engage), as opposed to the viscous coupling (which is near instantaneous).
Just north of Brisbane, near the Sunshine Coast (Burpengary).
Can you please provide some pics of:
1. Rear Diff
2. Visor instructions
3. Your Honda compliance/code plate, so we can compare codes
4. Centre viscous coupling and gearbox if you can swing it
Thanks mate, hope I havent taxed your brain too much.
SiWagon,
What is Phantom Grip???
Turbo_teq,
Get pics of Shenries conversion, this should be interesting to all of us.
Thanks guys for your input!!
Regards,
Tricky
As for the coupler type i actually have no idea which i have, all i know is that somehow i have managed to engage 4WD full-time by messing with the ALB system.
Hopefully we can compare pics and find out whats what.
http://www.phantomgrip.com/
I sent them an email for more info on that and anything they can provide about the rear diff.
How are you going with those pics?
I will send you the pics of mine for comparison soon.
I will be interested to locate the part number for the rear LSD.
Will the late '80's, early '90's CRX, Civic, Accord, Del-Sol and Wagon LSD front diffs bolt straight up?
I suspect the gearing will be different, which means back and front will be different.
Has anybody had any experince with Phantom Grip - thumbs up or down?
Cheers,
Tricky
As for the pics - my trip to Auckland has been relegated to Friday as my car is going into Speedfactor to get a new waterpump installed and the A.L.B system removed. I'll let you know soon.
I looked at your videos and I like your setup a lot - are you using the stock viscous coupling & rear diff?
I thinks its the stock setup Simon - turbo_teq, can you confirm??
Nice video by the way!
The diff from behind, notice the long nose and what appear to be cooling fins.
The info under the bonnet that i need to get translated. It also has the same looking info under the sun visor.
drivetrain is 100% stock and doing just fine soon im gunna have a spare tranny, vicouse coupler, and rear diff so im going to just beat the piss out of it till something breaks. i cant wait to get it on the dyno and with the new vtec head hoping for another 40hp or so with all the new goodies.
No way is that the same as mine and Simon's diff.
Is that a precursor to the CRV unit (i.e an early CRV unit before they were put into the CRV's)
Darndest thing - anybody??
Thanks for the pics.
Cheers,
Tricky
Your removing the ALB unit? I might be interested in buying it, if your willing to sell it that is. Do you use msn or aim or similar?
Geez, thats shit. Check this out, This is super nice: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =102948054
Replacement maybe?
Why did you have to go and find that!
I'd love to buy it but i'm not going to have anywhere to put a car for the next six months.
Damn you. :P
Nice car though, however it looks like it's been rear ended at some point.