Grrr New 91 RT4WD bought monday DIES! Quite a story.
markymayhem
Band Wagon
Hello all...
Monday I bought a super nice 1991 RT4WD wagon with 118,000 miles and ice cold air, new auto tranny and dizzy. I've put about 100 miles on it. The only issue I've noticed is the driver door hinge is wonky and sometimes if not closed softly the auto seatbelts don't work...
Well anyway today I am driving about 20mpg and the RPMs drop to 0 and jump to idle, drop to 0, jump to idle and the car dies. I push it outta the way after I determine it isn't gonna start and after some cussing, have a looksee.
When turning the key to start, I can't hear the fuel pump. It cranks.
My last Honda [a 1997 accord] had an issue with the starter switch in the key assy., and so I decided to take the under dash panel out.
MAN!!! There is a kill switch in there [doesn't seem to do anything], a buncha wires that don't go to anything anymore, a red and orange wire that seem to be cut, and look like they should go to the center of the fuse box, stuff is spliced to a red/wht 12ga wire, there are like 22ga wires spliced in to things all over, a BIG connector that's not plugged in to anything, and it's basically a mess. I am pretty sure that's where the problem lies.
I guess what I am asking is: does anyone have a pic of the underside of the dash with both the plastic and metal panels off, and/or a pic of the underdash fuse box. I have a diagram but it's not much help thus far.. also if anyone has instructions for wiring in a kill switch that I could work backwards from...
Update:
ECU throws no codes
Seems to be no spark - crammed a wire in the boot and had an assistant hold against the groundpoint on the valvecover
The nuts on the grounds on the valve cover are spakin new
There was an alarm & carphone installed, and the wiring is cheese under the dash....
The main relay seems to have been moved
There is a whole wiring harness that is totally unconnected to anything under there, it has as inline fuse...
And it won't start... Fuel pump primes though...
Another update, and I'm going to repost this under general, mods please delete from here...
OK, fuel pump fires
main relay clicks
seems to be no spark.
On the under-dash fuse-box, there are terminals labeled 3 4 5 with spade connectors on them
#3 has an orange wire that goes to nothing connected to it
#4 nothing
#5 has a red wire that goes to nothing connected to it.
If I touch #3 and #5 I hear a loud relay somewhere under the radio click
The under-dash ground near the left driver knee area is connected to nothing
There was an old alarm break sensor and some other crap like a relay with 4 terminals and a socket and a diode wired in, a kill switch of some sort, etc I removed everything that I know didn't beloing. There were wires spliced in on the WHT-RED wire and the WHT-BLK wire, and the BLK-WHT wire had been cut and had all sorta crap spliced in. They now just go to themselves.
There is a zip-tie around a BLUE-GREY and another tiny thin wire in one of the harnesses that was all taped up weird, like it was noting something, but nothing seems cut.
And the big mess... There is a whole BIG plug plugged in to.... nothing! right by the left foot, driver side.
It says ACX 07B on it, and PN 1502-0092 and the wires comming out, in order are:
BLK-WHT, ORANGE, PURPLE, GREY, BLK, GRN, YEL, BROWN, WHT-BLK, WHT, RED-WHT, RED
and there is a buncha wires taped in a bundle hooked to nothing as well [some of them were hooked in to the alarm and relay crap] the are colored:
GREEN, GREY, BLK, BROWN-ISH GREY, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, BLK-WHT
Tomarrow morning if my car is still there [dead in a bad part of St. Louis city....] I'm gonna check the dizzy... It's a new one, supposedly, and looks it, not just the cap either... But I suppose the rotor could be off....
HELP!!!!
Monday I bought a super nice 1991 RT4WD wagon with 118,000 miles and ice cold air, new auto tranny and dizzy. I've put about 100 miles on it. The only issue I've noticed is the driver door hinge is wonky and sometimes if not closed softly the auto seatbelts don't work...
Well anyway today I am driving about 20mpg and the RPMs drop to 0 and jump to idle, drop to 0, jump to idle and the car dies. I push it outta the way after I determine it isn't gonna start and after some cussing, have a looksee.
When turning the key to start, I can't hear the fuel pump. It cranks.
My last Honda [a 1997 accord] had an issue with the starter switch in the key assy., and so I decided to take the under dash panel out.
MAN!!! There is a kill switch in there [doesn't seem to do anything], a buncha wires that don't go to anything anymore, a red and orange wire that seem to be cut, and look like they should go to the center of the fuse box, stuff is spliced to a red/wht 12ga wire, there are like 22ga wires spliced in to things all over, a BIG connector that's not plugged in to anything, and it's basically a mess. I am pretty sure that's where the problem lies.
I guess what I am asking is: does anyone have a pic of the underside of the dash with both the plastic and metal panels off, and/or a pic of the underdash fuse box. I have a diagram but it's not much help thus far.. also if anyone has instructions for wiring in a kill switch that I could work backwards from...
Update:
ECU throws no codes
Seems to be no spark - crammed a wire in the boot and had an assistant hold against the groundpoint on the valvecover
The nuts on the grounds on the valve cover are spakin new
There was an alarm & carphone installed, and the wiring is cheese under the dash....
The main relay seems to have been moved
There is a whole wiring harness that is totally unconnected to anything under there, it has as inline fuse...
And it won't start... Fuel pump primes though...
Another update, and I'm going to repost this under general, mods please delete from here...
OK, fuel pump fires
main relay clicks
seems to be no spark.
On the under-dash fuse-box, there are terminals labeled 3 4 5 with spade connectors on them
#3 has an orange wire that goes to nothing connected to it
#4 nothing
#5 has a red wire that goes to nothing connected to it.
If I touch #3 and #5 I hear a loud relay somewhere under the radio click
The under-dash ground near the left driver knee area is connected to nothing
There was an old alarm break sensor and some other crap like a relay with 4 terminals and a socket and a diode wired in, a kill switch of some sort, etc I removed everything that I know didn't beloing. There were wires spliced in on the WHT-RED wire and the WHT-BLK wire, and the BLK-WHT wire had been cut and had all sorta crap spliced in. They now just go to themselves.
There is a zip-tie around a BLUE-GREY and another tiny thin wire in one of the harnesses that was all taped up weird, like it was noting something, but nothing seems cut.
And the big mess... There is a whole BIG plug plugged in to.... nothing! right by the left foot, driver side.
It says ACX 07B on it, and PN 1502-0092 and the wires comming out, in order are:
BLK-WHT, ORANGE, PURPLE, GREY, BLK, GRN, YEL, BROWN, WHT-BLK, WHT, RED-WHT, RED
and there is a buncha wires taped in a bundle hooked to nothing as well [some of them were hooked in to the alarm and relay crap] the are colored:
GREEN, GREY, BLK, BROWN-ISH GREY, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, BLK-WHT
Tomarrow morning if my car is still there [dead in a bad part of St. Louis city....] I'm gonna check the dizzy... It's a new one, supposedly, and looks it, not just the cap either... But I suppose the rotor could be off....
HELP!!!!
Comments
Stupid question but..... Got gas? Don't trust the gauge! Got spark anywhere? Has the fuel filter ever been changed?
Good luck!
I was thinking heat and/or bumps coulda caused something to disconnect, but as I said, I wired up everything that was together [with a buncha crap thrown in] together without the crap, so i THINK the wires that are disconnected, were.... I poured over the wiring diagrams though.. I can't even find a purple wire, let alone a connector with 12 wires that matches the one I have..
I dunno about the fuel filter...
I dont think I have spark, although I just crammed a 18 ga wire in the boot and had an assistant crank it while I help it near the valve cover ground..
Can anyone tell me where the underdash ground should go? It's near the driver left knee, under the metal dash panel
As detailed below, there was a prior security system install, among other things, and wires hanging out all over. After the dizzy cap didn't work, I started taking apart the electrical tape wiring loom with all the wires detailed below in it to trace them out.
All of the loose wires were spliced in to the back of the unhooked connector. Comming from the connector there were 3 wires that actually went somewhere.
Oh, and the CEL lights as expected, and the main relay clicks and the secondary in the main relay clicks...
The BLK/WHT wire comming from the connector goes thru the firewall, is spliced to a BLK/RED wire that goes towards the horn where it hits a wad of electrical tape, out of which comes a red wire and a black wire going to the horn, and a BLK/RED wire screwed to the ground at the horn.
The green wire comming from the connector is spliced to a purple wire that goes to the front left corner of the car and is hooked to a little pin on a spring deal that is situated so that closing the hood pushes the pin in.
The white wire is taped to the purple wire and goes all the way to the front left corner as well, but rather than hooking to the pin or anything, it disappears behind the headlight and I can't tell where it goes from there.
Regardless I'm pretty sure they all terminate in a wire hooked to nothing under the dash at this point. Some of them may have been wired up in the absolute MESS that was under there before I tore in to it though...
Any ideas?
Unfortunately I can't follow your description. All those wire colors mean nothing since there's no way of knowing what kind of alarm was in there.
Since you just bought the car, you are actually protected by lemon laws and the place that sold it should have to fix it for free.
Failing that, what you need to do is rip out all the aftermarket wiring. FIRST DISCONNECT YOUR BATTERY. It's pretty clear what is aftermarket and what is OEM. OEM wiring is a color with a stripe while most aftermarket wiring is usually solid and a little thicker insulation for it's awg size. Also, OEM wiring goes through plug harnesses and split loom while aftermarket wiring will have a ton of cheap electric tape that is usually wrapped poorly and coming off in places. It will have zip ties holding it to your OEM harnesses and other parts of the dash, and the grounds will be a crimped ring terminal with a metal tapping screw while OEM will have a threaded bolt hole. The OEM wiring where it is tied will have a pop tab inserted into a machined and painted hole in the sheet metal.
Kill switches and alarms will be tapped in to various circuits and can simply be cut and then taped over using good, stretchy electric tape. Then there will be one wire interrupted; almost always the black/white starter wire on the ignition harness. Sometimes it's the black/yellow ignition wire which makes sense for your case since the car stalled. Get yourself a 10 gauge butt connector and some Channel Lock 909 crimpers. Cut the aftermarket wires from your OEM wire and then reconnect the two halves of your OEM wire. If it is so bad that you need to extend your OEM wire, using 10 gauge stranded wire.
If you want to first verify that this is your problem, get yourself one of those $15-20 multimeters from Sears. This is one of the most important tools you will ever own. Set the dial to DC 20 volts. Jam the red probe into your distributor harness on the black/yellow wire so that it's touching the pin connector but the harness is still plugged in. Touch the black probe to ground ie the negative battery post. Put the key to the ignition setting (2nd click). The meter should read about 12 volts, the same reading you get when you measure the battery directly. If it isn't, then you're not getting ignition power and we know we're on the right path.
There were splices in to white/red and blk/yel but the wires weren't cut, just a little insulation removed and the splice wrapped around the wire...
The sensor I found was some kinda audiovox glass break sensor, if that helps.
Most all of the wires described don't go anywhere, actually. Here's the most recent, pertinent bit of info re: the wiring:
All of the loose wires were spliced in to the back of the unhooked connector. Comming from the connector there were 3 wires that actually went somewhere.
Oh, and the CEL lights as expected, and the main relay clicks and the secondary in the main relay clicks...
The BLK/WHT wire comming from the connector goes thru the firewall, is spliced to a BLK/RED wire that goes towards the horn where it hits a wad of electrical tape, out of which comes a red wire and a black wire going to the horn, and a BLK/RED wire screwed to the ground at the horn.
The green wire comming from the connector is spliced to a purple wire that goes to the front left corner of the car and is hooked to a little pin on a spring deal that is situated so that closing the hood pushes the pin in.
The white wire is taped to the purple wire and goes all the way to the front left corner as well, but rather than hooking to the pin or anything, it disappears behind the headlight and I can't tell where it goes from there.
Regardless I'm pretty sure they all terminate in a wire hooked to nothing under the dash at this point. Some of them may have been wired up in the absolute MESS that was under there before I tore in to it though...
the relay says on it: Potter & Brumfield VF4-45F11 12VDC 40/30A
The side says: 910931 and the other side has a diagram: 85 - 86 87 - 87A and 30 under it
The plug says:
N.T.K. UC-3003 7&U Taiwan
It'll be easier for others to help you if they're not trying to paint a complicated multi-colored mental picture of just WTF is going on under your dash.... I use post-it-notes to apply text captions, arrows etc in my pictures.
Other than that, listen to the expert, suspendedHatch - lose the alarm wiring
Good Luck
Best one to get would be a used OEM.
x2
I got one from them for a ls. I had to rotate the thing all the way forward to get it to time, actually had to remove one bolt to get it to go far enough. I played with the timing belt and cams forever thinking it was off before I realized it was the cheap dizzy.
Distributor King dizzys are known to have bad / weak crank position sensors. It's one of those weird intermittent problems that you can never figure out. If you have an AEM EMS which isn't designed to tolerate a weak signal like the factory ECU is, you pretty much never get the damn thing to sync. It's a known problem.
Replaced the dizzy. Fired right up!
1500 miles later, no issues EXCEPT a weird temporary no-start issue, something with the shift interlock or something, the shifter was stuck in park, and when I cranked the engine, the S3 light on the dash lit.. Anyway, I posted about it, including my temporary fix here:
http://www.hondacivicwagon.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9762
headlights dont turn on
-relay was tapped into for the power to the amp (yeah i know what a ret-ard)
fixed the relay and it worked for a minute
-few weeks later they dont work AT ALL
i get a multimeter out and test the resistances of like everything, comes back to the relay so i replace it again. nothing happens
so i pop the top off and physically turn the relay to a closed position.
-well im thinking since the relay doesnt work then it must be my jankity ass switch.
although its as pretty as a war wound it is fine electrically. and it still sends power as the headlights flip up
-i notice corrosion on the bulb
so i fix it and that fixes the problem for another week til it stops again
i decided that was a sign from the honda gods that that car wasnt ment for me. so im selling it and buying a wagon.