Fender Braces?
nominous
familEE
I dunno what to call them so it makes sense to most of the forum members, but I tried 
I'm talking about these:
Is anyone running them?
Are you noticing a difference from doing so?
There seems to be two distinct camps. Those in favour and those against. Do something verses do nothing.
I'm not sure who to believe, but the shuttle is different to the civic so, hell I might as well ask the question!
I'm talking about these:
Is anyone running them?
Are you noticing a difference from doing so?
There seems to be two distinct camps. Those in favour and those against. Do something verses do nothing.
I'm not sure who to believe, but the shuttle is different to the civic so, hell I might as well ask the question!
Comments
I have heard this about many products over they years but a few things need to be considered.
1. I agree, something welded should have less give versus a bolt and nut.
2. Just because something is bolted, does not mean that it can not increase chassis stiffness and rigidity.
Think about how many safety critical components of our cars are held together not by welds, but by bolts. Look at how sway bars function and how significant they are, yet they are merely bolted. Granted, sway bars are different than chassis bracing, but they are still bolted on.
For 7 years I worked for a Japanese aftermarket company specializing in suspension components. During that time I came to realize that even though a bar was bolted on a car, it could have a measureable difference in chassis rigidity. At the same time, I saw a lot of products that did nothing.
Installing a bar between two points doesn't mean it will stiffen the car, it has to be determined whether or not the car exhibits flex from those areas.
For example, I owned a S2000 a few years back and Honda made that chassis very tight. When I went to install a strut bar on the car, if it was jacked up, the 1-piece bar would not fit on the top hats. Basically the chassis would flex outward. If the car was on the ground, the 1-piece bar would fit. After installing the bar and jacking the car up, the bar kept the towers from flexing outward despite it being held to the car by 4 nuts. Also, I removed the nuts after several thousand miles of driving to see if there were any visual signs of movement, ie: scratches or grooves in the material, there were none.
In the end, it really comes down to the design of the bar and the amount of flex in that area of the chassis. As far as fender braces, I am not sure, I don't have any experience with those, as the company I worked for did not produce them. If you want to find out go talk to some of the drivers at the next Redline Time Attack or other road racing events to see if they are using them or have any experience. I always value their opinions.
When you jack the front of a shuttle or TBH any EF up you can see the chassis flex becasue teh doors will become harder to shut. I'm going to try one of these.
It's not rocket science to make one.
A sway bar is a straightened spring. Instead of being mashed down it's twisted. Imagine holding the arms of the sway bar and twisting them in opposite directions. That is how it works! It's attached to the control arms by end links so that when one control arm moves up as in a turn and the weight is shifted to the outside wheel, the wheel moves up which brings the LCA up, pushing the end link up which pushes the arm of the sway bar up rotating the bar. This causes the other arm to rotate up, which tugs on the other lower control arm through the end link. Well the opposing control arm in a turn is trying to do the opposite and go down. Just picture a car with loose suspension in a turn, the car leans down on the outside wheel and lifts up on the inside wheel. The twisting of the sway bar resists this action causing the car to remain flat.
As I stated earlier you can see that the force is acting on the bar and not on the end links or the sway bar mounts.
As to the original question, I doubt those braces will do much at all. Picture the car as a flimsy cardboard box (not hard to do with our wagons). You could strengthen the walls of the box by doubling up on the cardboard in places, but you'll still be able to grasp the box by the corners and easily twist it out of shape. If you really want to make it strong, you put in some diagonal bars connecting the opposite corners. This isn't feasible on a car but the closer you can get to that ideal the better. A strut brace will do a lot lot more than those cheesy fender braces.
My point was that it was still merely bolted on and I said that it has a different function. I understand how it works and that maybe I should not have compared a sway bar to a chassis brace. Further down in my post though I gave an example of the strut bar on the S2000 which would be a more comparible product.
As far as your sway bar comment is concerned, to say that the force is not acting on the mounts is incorrect. Take a look at the countless number of EG, EK and DC (non-R) models where people installed the Type R rear sway and the mounting areas tore out. Obviously the mounts see force and in this case, the small bolts held, but the chassis gave way.
Back to my original point, bolts versus welding and whether or not bolts are sufficient enough to hold parts together and increasing rigidity... take a look at the control arms, knuckles, links, tie rod ends, trailing arms, etc... they are all held in place with bolts which is what I was getting at.
Moral of my story, (again) you can increase chassis rigidity with bolt on products IF they are designed to do so.
They're not supposed but in the cases you mentioned, the geometry is incorrect due to poor engineering (also in part due to improper installation as in people over tightening those bushing mounts). However you can get a Progress 24mm rear bar for any of those applications with no subframe reinforcement and it will never cause tear-out either in racing or on the street.
LOL... of course they are not suppose to tear out... but it happens.
I have seen OEM Honda Type R bars, Progress, etc tear out... and I have seen cars that ran those setups with no problems. I do agree that there are many people out there that install parts when they have no business doing so and mess something up, but all of those subframe tearouts are not from installation error. Trust me, I have dealt with many customers yelling and screaming that a Cusco strut bar would not fit their Impreza and after I explained how to install it, the bar somehow fit. So I am no stranger in dealing with inept 'mechanics'.
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this subtopic, but my main point still stands.