Car starts then immediately dies
udubrx7
Senior Wagonist
Hey everybody, I need a little help. Just to preface this, the car I'm working on here in NOT a wagon, but I just love you guys more than the H-T assholes.
1989 Civic Hatchback, it sat for an unknown amount of time before I bought it, and the fuel pump was completely rusted out and had to be replaced.
MPFI swap and D16A6 from wrecked 1990 wagon (engine ran fine after the wreck)
DC Header, open intake filter, no other engine mods
Symptoms are:
-When the car is cold, it will start right up and immediately die.
-If I feather the throttle JUUUUST a little, then keep my foot steady on the gas (barely opening the throttle plate), I can get it to stay running and hold an OK idle.
-After it has warmed up a little bit I can take my foot off the throttle and it will hold a VERY low idle.
-Cold or warm, with the engine running, if I press the throttle more than just a little bit it revs up some and then revs up and down over and over like I'm stabbing at the throttle (even though I am keeping my foot still).
-If I remove the vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator, the idle immediately increases and the engine responds at least 50% better to my throttle inputs.
-While the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line is unhooked from the intake manifold nipple, the engine will die immediately if I place my finger over that nipple on the intake manifold.
-I did notice right before I left the car today that the lower timing belt cover is definitely coming into contact with the crank pulley, causing friction and some noise.
I have already:
-Fiddled with the idle adjust screw.
-Tried running the car with and without the IACV plugged in.
-Filled the tank up with new gas, some water eliminator, and some seafoam.
-Checked error codes, only #19 because this ECU is from an automatic EX sedan.
-Replaced the fuel pump.
-Replaced the fuel filter.
-Replaced the ignition switch.
-Swapped out the main relay for two other known good ones, same problem with any of the 3 that I have.
-Checked fuel pressure and fuel pressure regulator per FSM instructions, they were apparently OK.
-Checked distributor per FSM instructions, it is apparently OK.
-Checked timing with timing light, it was OK.
-Rotated the engine counter-clockwise until the TDC mark on the camshaft pulley lined up with the pointer on the inner timing belt cover, then looked at the crankshaft pulley. It looks like the TDC mark on the crankshaft pulley is about a 1/4" to the left of where the pointer on the timing cover is.
-Loosened the tensioner bolt, then rotated the engine around again (making sure not to let the belt slip) until the TDC mark on the crankshaft was lined up with the pointer on the timing cover. Now it looks like the TDC mark on the crankshaft, and the TDC mark on the camshaft are lined up properly.
I want to go ahead and assume that when I put tension on the belt and then tighten the tensioner pulley bolt (per FSM instructions), it is throwing the timing off by a tooth. BUT the fact that the timing seemed to be on when I checked it with the light is confusing me. I'm also confused as to why it runs a lot better with the FPR vacuum line disconnected.
Any help would be much appreciated! I'm going to go out to the shop tomorrow morning and take the timing belt off then put it back on without the lower timing cover, just to see if maybe it was off a tooth and maybe there is more friction than I thought on the crank pulley from the cover.
1989 Civic Hatchback, it sat for an unknown amount of time before I bought it, and the fuel pump was completely rusted out and had to be replaced.
MPFI swap and D16A6 from wrecked 1990 wagon (engine ran fine after the wreck)
DC Header, open intake filter, no other engine mods
Symptoms are:
-When the car is cold, it will start right up and immediately die.
-If I feather the throttle JUUUUST a little, then keep my foot steady on the gas (barely opening the throttle plate), I can get it to stay running and hold an OK idle.
-After it has warmed up a little bit I can take my foot off the throttle and it will hold a VERY low idle.
-Cold or warm, with the engine running, if I press the throttle more than just a little bit it revs up some and then revs up and down over and over like I'm stabbing at the throttle (even though I am keeping my foot still).
-If I remove the vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator, the idle immediately increases and the engine responds at least 50% better to my throttle inputs.
-While the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line is unhooked from the intake manifold nipple, the engine will die immediately if I place my finger over that nipple on the intake manifold.
-I did notice right before I left the car today that the lower timing belt cover is definitely coming into contact with the crank pulley, causing friction and some noise.
I have already:
-Fiddled with the idle adjust screw.
-Tried running the car with and without the IACV plugged in.
-Filled the tank up with new gas, some water eliminator, and some seafoam.
-Checked error codes, only #19 because this ECU is from an automatic EX sedan.
-Replaced the fuel pump.
-Replaced the fuel filter.
-Replaced the ignition switch.
-Swapped out the main relay for two other known good ones, same problem with any of the 3 that I have.
-Checked fuel pressure and fuel pressure regulator per FSM instructions, they were apparently OK.
-Checked distributor per FSM instructions, it is apparently OK.
-Checked timing with timing light, it was OK.
-Rotated the engine counter-clockwise until the TDC mark on the camshaft pulley lined up with the pointer on the inner timing belt cover, then looked at the crankshaft pulley. It looks like the TDC mark on the crankshaft pulley is about a 1/4" to the left of where the pointer on the timing cover is.
-Loosened the tensioner bolt, then rotated the engine around again (making sure not to let the belt slip) until the TDC mark on the crankshaft was lined up with the pointer on the timing cover. Now it looks like the TDC mark on the crankshaft, and the TDC mark on the camshaft are lined up properly.
I want to go ahead and assume that when I put tension on the belt and then tighten the tensioner pulley bolt (per FSM instructions), it is throwing the timing off by a tooth. BUT the fact that the timing seemed to be on when I checked it with the light is confusing me. I'm also confused as to why it runs a lot better with the FPR vacuum line disconnected.
Any help would be much appreciated! I'm going to go out to the shop tomorrow morning and take the timing belt off then put it back on without the lower timing cover, just to see if maybe it was off a tooth and maybe there is more friction than I thought on the crank pulley from the cover.
Comments
It's not throwing codes for either of those sensors, but I can check them out. I have already cleaned the EACV, about 2 months ago. I also just recently replaced the coolant temp sensor (ECT?) about a month ago. In both situations the car was running the same before and after cleaning the EACV and replacing the ECT. I'll go and pull all the electrical tape back on the wires for the EACV and ECT and make sure there aren't any problems, but I thought if there were it would throw a code?
Also I forgot I have a PR4 integra ECU that I could try and swap in to see if that makes any difference.
Should I get a vacuum gauge to check for vacuum at idle?
thanks guys
i would check vacuum, and i wish i had more to tell about how to do it. i just found i had a similar situation cause by a split vacuum hose.
I checked out the wires on the ECT, and I could see bare wires right by the rubber grommet that fits into the back of the plug. It looked like a coupe of strands were severed as well. I also found another place where both wires had insulation missing in the same place, more open wires. So I found my old dpfi wiring harness, and went to remove the pigtail for the ECT. Little did I know that the ECT wires meet up with wires going to the TPS and the IAT as well. So I de-pinned all of the wires from those connectors from the main harness connecter on the old harness, de-pinned the same wires from the harness in the car, and re-pinned in the sensor wires from the old harness. So now I know for sure that all of the wiring for the IAT, ECT, and TPS is good. And yes I am MPFI swapped, so I had to swap the two outside wires on the TPS plug. While I was at it I cleaned up the distr cap and rotor, and put some spark plugs in that weren't all black like mine.
Needless to say, the car starts and runs pretty well on it's own now. I believe the root of that problem was the ECT. THANKS BAM!! You wouldn't believe how long I searched on google and didn't find a DAMN thing saying to check the ECT.
It still doesn't seem to running very good though..... if I hold the throttle steady at about 2k rpms, something is making the idle surge up and down very quickly. I'm assuming this has something to do with the EACV since now the ECU is throwing code #14. I cleaned out the connector with some electrical cleaner spray, and reconnected it, but it didn't seem to help. Also reset the ecu, and the code came back. I guess the next step is the FSM check for voltage.
I checked for leaks the best I could by just starting the engine, and seeing if it would continue to run with my hand covering the throttle body inlet, and it died right away every time. The only thing I did notice is that there seems to be a LITTLE bit of fuel leaking from between the #2 injector and the fuel rail. I guess that could cause a problem! So I will order new grommets and o-rings here soon and see if that changes anything also.
I need to bleed the brakes first, but then I'm going to try and drive the car around the block and see how it does. I'm worried it won't do very well because of the surging when i put my foot on the gas.
Take off the intake tube so you can see the throttle body, and the port leading to the EACV. Raise the RPMs to the surging point, then put your finger over the hole. If it then smooths out- bingo. Crawl back in the dumpster and get one!
Same can be done for FITV, if your intake has one.
Have you reset the ECU? I think lack of ECT input will trigger "limp" mode. The little fuel leak isn't causing a surge-does need to be fixed of course, but it's just coincidental.
I thought that the port in the inside of the throttle body was for the bypass air that is controlled by the throttle screw? If I put my finger in it with the car running it dies right away, But I'll see what it does when I get it to surge and put my finger over it.
Yes the ecu has been reset over and over, every time I leave the car for the day I pull the negative battery cable off.
Right now my FITV is blocked off, it was causing weird idle problems with this engine in the other car.
This engine was running normally before I swapped it into the new car, the only thing that could have possibly been changed was that I had to replace the timing belt and could have messed that up. But I checked the timing with a timing light and I set it dead on by rotating the distributor, so doesn't that mean that the timing belt couldn't be a off a tooth? I keep coming back and worrying about that since it's one of the only things that is different other than the fuel supply system and a little wiring.
You can also try the old screwdriverstethoscope trick. Listen to whether the surge matches the clicking of the EACV.
BUT, I played with the timing belt a little, it's got to be OK the TDC marks are SOOO close I think the cover is just shifted a little making me think it's slightly off. Still no luck, car still ran bad.
So just for kicks I plugged in a 91 integra PR4 ECU that I had laying around, and what do you know the car RUNS FINE now! No surging at throttle, and idle sounds better. I just drove it a couple of miles from the shop to my house and it's running prettttttty good. This is all with the EACV unplugged since it is throwing code #14. I also couldn't tell any difference when unplugging and replugging the EACV while the car was running, I seem to remember doing that used cause a noticable change in idle on EFs with no CEL #14. So I'm sure I still have EACV problems, but at any rate the PR4 is allowing the car to run normally and drive normally.
I guess my PS9 got too much of a G shock when I got in my wreck.... I thought it was ok because it knew which codes to throw at which times, but apparently not......