Lowered wagon, alignment, blah blah

Was just reading through this thread and found some good info.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8817

I considered just plugging my questions into this thread but figured it may be best to start my own.

My wagon is dropped prob about 3". GC coilovers, extended top hats. Still drove great.
Now I've done a brake and spindle swap (DA integra) and I know the toe is way outta spec. I call a local alignment shop and they confirm that they can only adjust the toe.

I've adjusted toe on prob 30 to 40 different air cooled vw's with nothing more than a few yard sticks and always come out with excellent results. You know, measure the difference between the from and rear of the wheel/tire and adjust to spec.

Now if the alignment shop can't do anything more than toe, is there any reason I can't take care of this myself?

I havent' looked at how the rear adjustment is made. But if everybody is just getting it adjusted maxed out as far as it will go in one direction.... is there any reason not just to adjust that as far in that direction as far as possible and know that that's as good as it's gonna get without buying the "toe kit".


of course the question "why don't you just stop being cheep and go pay for an alignment" will come up. My answer "do you give away money that you don't need to"? If so I'll provide you with my paypal address :D

Comments

  • could be done without an alignment rack but it would just be ridiculously time consuming because of where the rear compensator arms are. and that you would have to lift it every time you needed to make an adjustment and then have the suspension "settle" before you took any more measurements to determine if you needed to make more adjustments and rinse and repeat until satisfied. and the measurements and adjustments you make have to be pointing ahead to the front tires. it is possible to have equal measurements at the front and rear of the tire but not be pointing straight ahead causing the rear of your car to pull to one side, this is also called "crab walk". this could turn into many hours of taking measurements and making adjustments.

    i understand not wanting to pay for an alignment but it may be worth it in the long run if you don't have access to an alignment rack and computer. a competent alignment tech should be able to do this in less than an hour unless parts are seized.
  • oilspotoilspot Wagonist
    Very nice to get feedback from somebody that does this stuff for a living!
    Now this may make sense in my mind, and I'm not saying this to question you, and I may very well end up just going and getting the alignment done. But this is what I'm thinking...
    Seems quite a few people are ending up with there there rear toe just adjusted maxed out in one direction to get it as close to spec as possible.
    JesseCRX wrote:
    My wagon is lowered, and when I got it aligned the tech told me my tow is "maxed out" in the rear...so my toe wasn't perfect so he set it the best he could.
    codyJDM wrote:
    my rear toe is maxed all the way in
    ogwagon wrote:
    91_wago wrote:
    the rear toe adjustment is maxed out towards the negative side and the car is barely within spec. On my hatchback the rear toe adjustment is also maxed out toward the negative side

    Now if it's adjusted all the way that should leave both sides pulled in the same amount. If they're both pulled in the same amount that would keep the rear end from "crab walking". So the rear end should be going straight (that's what I'm assuming at least).

    Now your just left with the front. Now adjusting the toe out of center wouldn't cause the car to "crab walk" but instead would cause the car to be able to steer to one side tighter than the other. I think this may be obvious to which side you would be off due to the centering of the steering wheel. True center of the steering could be confirmed by counting the turns from lock to lock.

    Now if your not just pulling the rear adjustment all the way one way or another non of this would work. There may be more variables that I'm not thinking about.

    again biohazard, I do really appreciate your feedback. I get these damn "why not" questions stuck in my head and they drive me crazy!!!
  • JakerJaker familEE
    Those other variables you're referring to above are manufacturing tolerances. That is in fact why there are adjustment points in the suspension: so that they can set the alignment after the car has been built. Otherwise, there would be no need. Just by pulling the adjustment of the rear toe to the limits of the slots in the chassis will NOT ensure that they rear wheels are both pointing roughly in the same direction. You NEED to measure.
  • oilspotoilspot Wagonist
    Jaker wrote:
    manufacturing tolerances

    yeah... that makes sense! Didn't really think of that. Even though i worked quite a few years in manufacturing. Every tolerance does have a +/-. And I'm sure on suspension stuff that the tolerances would be pretty loose assuming that all alignment setting would be done professionally.

    Thank you for quieting my rumbling mind!!!
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    I'd say do it your way.You sound experienced .Measure your current toe.Max it out measure the toe.Extrapolate where you want it.Re-toe if needed...done. From doing 30-40 cars,the eyeball check,tire wear & test drive I'd say you'll know if the toe is off.It may not be perfect,but if you don't notice it.It's fine.
  • oilspotoilspot Wagonist
    I was stuck at work yesterday thinking about this.
    I need to be able to start using my wagon as my daily driver next week. I need to replace the tie rod ends here pretty soon but don't have the cash on hand right away. Then after i get that done I'm planning on widening a set of steelies for my wagon myself.

    Two seperate jobs both of which are gonna require realignments (wheels because I may or may not need to adjust ride height to make everything proper).

    So In the name of not tearing up a set of tires (and not paying for 3 alignments), I think I may give it a shot. My one big advantage is that I have a drop pit. So I don't have to go through the hassle of picking up, adjusting, rechecking, etc. I think I could probably pull it off on a set of ramps also?!?

    I've always made toe measurements using yard sticks from the insides of the wheels. I found this technique looking around on youtube. The string tech. he goes into at about the 6 minute mark.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjcP07VK ... re=related


    My goal is to get "close enough" to not tear up tires and have the car drive fairly well.
    When I get everything fixed/ changed I'll take it in for an alignment. At that point I guess ill find out how close or how shitty of a job i did. :D
  • JakerJaker familEE
    I like that he goes into a lot of detail, but his system won't work for many cars that have wider/narrower track width front to rear (I'm one of those). The system that does work is a "string box", where you make a perfectly square string box around the outside of the car, and center the car as close as possible in the box. Then you have a "frame" of referrence to take measurements all around the car, and you can actually account for "crab" correction using this system.
  • ogwagonogwagon Wagonist
    oilspot, when you swapped out the spindles to DA versions, did your front toe go full toe in?
  • having a pit is helpful, but you should find something you can use for "turn plates" for the front tires so when your adjusting the front you don't have to over come the friction of the tires being on the ground. some sort of ball bearing plate sandwich or heavy duty lazy Susan would be best. also find something to hold the steering wheel firmly in place while doing all of this cause the wheel can move off center while making adjustments. and the ignition lock is not a good substitute cause it wont lock at dead center, i think.

    id say do it up of all you need is close enough. if the steering wheel isn't off center a crap-ton and it doesn't pull to one side id say you did a decent job.
  • JakerJaker familEE
    The Youtube video above shows a simple DIY option for turn plates.
  • oilspotoilspot Wagonist
    Jaker wrote:
    but his system won't work for many cars that have wider/narrower track width front to rear (I'm one of those).
    So one of the things i have to figure out is if wagons have a equal track distance front and rear. From this post I'm thinking mabey not. If not do you happen to know the difference?
    Now say the rear track were one foot wider (over exaggeration). Couldn't you just figure in the 6" difference on each side? ie. string 12" away from the center of the front wheel and 6" from the center of the rear.
  • JakerJaker familEE
    I don't see why not. If you knew the exact difference or exact track dimensions, and all your wheels were the exact same dimensions (offset and width, as well as same brand/model), then you could certainly calculate how much to add to the correct end (narrower rear track width - extra distance from the hubcap to the string).
  • oilspotoilspot Wagonist
    anybody know where i can find a schematic for a 88-91 wagon?
    this is all i can find (still looking though!)

    982.jpg

    Damn! I'd love to burn a screen of this and make some shirts!
  • wagodizzlewagodizzle Council Member and EDM expert
    i have been doing the string-alignment for about three years now and it has been working pretty good. i have only used it for the front to set toe and camber (i have a camber kit). however, i always used the rears as a reference point, and i had to assume the rears were set perfect (long story behind it, but they were set perfect lol).

    once i got widened steelies, and as time progressed, the rears got out of alignment (noticable by horrible tire wear) and i could no longer get a very accurate front reading, so now i am stuck going to the shop.

    also for some reason my wagons passenger side front tire sticks out about an inch more then the drivers side which also messes me up on the string alignment.

    ____

    idk about where you live, but here at Tire Kingdom (though they suck like crazy) you can buy unlimited alignments for 1, 2 or 3 years so i would do that if i were you. :mrgreen:
  • JakerJaker familEE
    Those schematics are not in my Helms, but the front and rear track width for the Wagon (both FWD and 4WD are the same) are 56.7 inches and 57.1 inches respectively.
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