Headgasket issue seems resident in Shuttles?

Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
in Engine & Drivetrain
I have owned 4 Shuttles', ranging from 60,000miles to 160,000 miles on the clocks. Two 1.4 GL, one had a blown headgasket, and two 1.6 4WD, one had a blown headgasket. I found one JDM 4WD at a scrapyard - blown headgasket. I'm sure Nominous had a 4WD with a blown h/g.
And today, I've got word of another 4WD that has blown the engine.

What's the deal?!

:shock:

Comments

  • CharbCharb Administrator
    Heat up and pop. Probably related to the thermostats always going out. That seems to always be my problem.
  • P.S.I GarageP.S.I Garage Wagonist
    Honda had a tsb on the head gaskets. They have an upgraded part number and rec replacing the head bolts too. I just did mine
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    P.S.I Garage wrote:
    Honda had a tsb on the head gaskets. They have an upgraded part number and rec replacing the head bolts too. I just did mine


    Ahhh ok, that makes sense.

    Whats the difference in the two?
  • ragenasianragenasian Moderator
    I have had numerous D16's and never had any issues with the headgasket. The only one I had problems with was when I let it overheat. decked the head, copper headgasket, never had problems again :mrgreen:
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    If you let them overheat the gasket gives up, i have found this with all d-series including the DOHC ZC.
  • udubrx7udubrx7 Senior Wagonist
    Haydz wrote:
    If you let them overheat the gasket gives up, i have found this with all d-series including the DOHC ZC.

    +1
  • Eagle BeagleEagle Beagle familEE
    AC related is always a cause...
    :mrgreen:
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    Eagle Beagle wrote:
    AC related is always a cause...
    :mrgreen:

    UK models don't have A/C though

    and i've seen UK ones with blown h/g
  • udubrx7udubrx7 Senior Wagonist
    I think it's pretty much the weak point of the engines when they are stock, or have a shitty replacement head gasket. I don't know anybody who has blown a nice copper head gasket without pegging the temp gauge all the way in the red.
  • ragenasianragenasian Moderator
    I have seen them as well with blown headgaskets but does that make is a common honda problem? I have seen a lot more without headgasket problems. As cheap as these cars are most of the time the labor costs to fix one is more than the value of the car. Most people won't fix them they just turn them in and buy another car. The cost of a headgasket replacement here in germany is 800-1000 euros. My wagon was only 1200. Would I pay a mechanic to do the work, hell no, but I can fix my own cars most people can not.

    I could also say I have seen just as many opels and bmws with blown headgaskets. Does that make it a opel or BMW issue? I think it comes down to who owns it, how they drive it, and if they care enough to do proper maintenance.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    ragenasian wrote:
    I have seen them as well with blown headgaskets but does that make is a common honda problem? I have seen a lot more without headgasket problems. As cheap as these cars are most of the time the labor costs to fix one is more than the value of the car. Most people won't fix them they just turn them in and buy another car. The cost of a headgasket replacement here in germany is 800-1000 euros. My wagon was only 1200. Would I pay a mechanic to do the work, hell no, but I can fix my own cars most people can not.

    I could also say I have seen just as many opels and bmws with blown headgaskets. Does that make it a opel or BMW issue? I think it comes down to who owns it, how they drive it, and if they care enough to do proper maintenance.


    well here in the UK, there are sweet FA shuttle's about, and headgaskets seem to be popular failure among UK ones. but prehaps just bad luck, not looked after
  • udubrx7udubrx7 Senior Wagonist
    I loosely follow the 24hours of LeMons races here in the US, and I would like to think that a honda could win every race - but they always seem to blow head gaskets!
    24 Hours of LeMons Website
  • P.S.I GarageP.S.I Garage Wagonist
    Here is what I pulled from alldata.

    97-047

    November 10, 1997

    Applies To: 1988 - 95 Civic - All, except VTEC
    Head Gasket Leaks
    (Supersedes 97-047, dated September 29, 1997)

    PROBLEM

    The head gasket leaks oil externally or allows coolant into the combustion chambers.

    CORRECTIVE ACTION

    Install the new style cylinder head gasket and the new head bolts in the Cylinder Gasket Kit listed under PARTS INFORMATION. Use the cylinder head bolt torque sequence described in this bulletin.

    PARTS INFORMATION
    Cylinder Gasket Kit: H/C ***0031
    Kit includes:
    Cylinder Head Gasket (new-style):
    P/N 12251-P01-004, H/C 4489530
    Cylinder Head Bolts
    (10 required, use with new-style gasket):
    P/N 90005-PM3-004, H/C 2894988
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    P.S.I Garage wrote:
    PARTS INFORMATION
    Cylinder Gasket Kit: H/C ***0031
    Kit includes:
    Cylinder Head Gasket (new-style):
    P/N 12251-P01-004, H/C 4489530
    Cylinder Head Bolts
    (10 required, use with new-style gasket):
    P/N 90005-PM3-004, H/C 2894988


    Is that for the D16A6/7?

    i cant seem to find the head bolts under that part number :?
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    P.S.I Garage wrote:
    PARTS INFORMATION
    Cylinder Gasket Kit: H/C ***0031
    Kit includes:
    Cylinder Head Gasket (new-style):
    P/N 12251-P01-004, H/C 4489530
    Cylinder Head Bolts
    (10 required, use with new-style gasket):
    P/N 90005-PM3-004, H/C 2894988


    Is that for the D16A6/7?

    i cant seem to find the head bolts under that part number :?[/quote:318rs0a9]

    its ok, i found them


    i went to honda to order the gasket, but they have a different part number... 12251-PM5-S02 ????
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    P.S.I Garage wrote:
    PARTS INFORMATION
    Cylinder Gasket Kit: H/C ***0031
    Kit includes:
    Cylinder Head Gasket (new-style):
    P/N 12251-P01-004, H/C 4489530
    Cylinder Head Bolts
    (10 required, use with new-style gasket):
    P/N 90005-PM3-004, H/C 2894988


    Is that for the D16A6/7?

    i cant seem to find the head bolts under that part number :?[/quote:3npehxic]

    its ok, i found them


    i went to honda to order the gasket, but they have a different part number... 12251-PM5-S02 ????[/quote:3npehxic]


    bit more info.... the part number 12251-PM3-004 cant be found on the EU Honda database. however 12251-P01-004 seems to be the correct part number after I search the net.

    can anyone confirm 12251-P01-004 is the new style H/G?
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    According to what you quoted, yes.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    can I also ask is it 100% necessary to use the new headbolts as welll?
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    Not sure on that one. You could always use ARP headstuds.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    Haydz wrote:
    Not sure on that one. You could always use ARP headstuds.


    lol yeh I could, but Im not made of money :lol:

    even from honda, just the bolts will be £70!
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    ARP headstuds will be less than half that.

    I bought and sold a D16 set for $80 NZD.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    bloody honda!

    i ring them up to order the new headgasket

    the part number i took from a Honda bulletin that says this new h/g is for ALL Civic's 88-95 exl. vtec (12251-P01-004)

    but he tells me its for 91-96 civic 4dr. and gives me the part number 12251-Pm5-S02 which i tell him is the old composite headgasket

    then tries to tell me Honda h/g never fail lol

    they all have the same fucking engine anyway!!! :x



    so ive done some digging, and found this little quote:
    "To Replace Leaking Gaskets This special head gasket should be used when failure was caused by gasket leakage. Please refer to Honda service bulletin 97-047. It advises that if the head gasket is being replaced due to leakage, this is the correct replacement gasket. Also necessary are special head bolts (90005-PM3-004, 10 bolts required). If the head gasket is not leaking but is being replaced for other reasons, use gasket #12251-PM5-S02 along with the normal head bolts."



    so if i order the new style will i have to have the new bolts?

    i dont understand why use the old style if yours inst leaking (mine isnt) if the Honda bulletin says that parts been superceeded

    man this is stressing me out!


    dont think ill bother getting it replaced
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    OK here's the low down.

    Head bolts:You're suppose to use new bolts or studs 'cuz the old ones stretch ,but people do reuse the old ones.

    Composite h/g:This is what we have.These don't hold up as well as the metal h/g(read next line).In most cases(for average drivers) these hold up well,but pushed...

    Metal h/g:The 1 you want.It's basically the '92-'95 Civic Si EX metal h/g.I believe this what Honda dealers now use as standard h/g replacement.

    The 91-96 civic 4dr h/g(you mentioned):If this the y8 h/g I'm thinkin of can be used,BUT may bump your compression ratio.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    SiWagon wrote:
    OK here's the low down.

    Head bolts:You're suppose to use new bolts or studs 'cuz the old ones stretch ,but people do reuse the old ones.

    Composite h/g:This is what we have.These don't hold up as well as the metal h/g(read next line).In most cases(for average drivers) these hold up well,but pushed...

    Metal h/g:The 1 you want.It's basically the '92-'95 Civic Si EX metal h/g.I believe this what Honda dealers now use as standard h/g replacement.

    The 91-96 civic 4dr h/g(you mentioned):If this the y8 h/g I'm thinkin of can be used,BUT may bump your compression ratio.


    ok thanks, thats starting to make sense.

    but they wouldnt replace it with the metal one here in the UK, as they type in reg number and order the part that comes up (which is the PM5-S02 p/#)

    might be a stupid question, so forgive me, but will bumping the compression by using the new metal h/g alter anything, or require anything else?

    i thought honda head bolts dont stretch?
  • udubrx7udubrx7 Senior Wagonist
    Marc_EE9 wrote:
    i thought honda head bolts dont stretch?


    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but...... pretty much any bolt/stud that is that long is going to give a little bit (stretching/twisting), just because of the nature of the metal and the dimensions of the fastener. On a lot of 4 cylinder engines, the head bolts/studs are actually SUPPOSED to stretch/twist a little bit as a function of how you torque it down according to factory specs. I believe this helps to hold it in place against vibration. I know that is why a lot of times people say not to reuse the head bolts/studs, but I do not know if that applies to Hondas.
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    The increase in compression isn't a prob on stock heads.

    As far as bolt stretch FSM makes no recommendation of bolt replacement,but later K20a engines actually have you check bolt dia. @ 2 different spots on the bolt for stretch.Just make sure you oil the bolt threads & under the bolt head b4 install.The torque specs are for oiled bolts.
  • Marc_EE9Marc_EE9 Senior Wagonist
    i wont be doing the work myself, its out of my league. plus i have no time or space to do it

    thanks for the replies guys, much appreciated
  • morningbakermorningbaker Band Wagon
    I have had good luck with Fel-Pro gaskets. I also like to replace thermostats when I purchase a car ( which is not that often ) and of course with Honda properly bleeding the cooling system. That way I feel better, I know whats in it. It may save alot of other hassle.
  • udubrx7udubrx7 Senior Wagonist
    I think if you're going to buy a new head gasket you might as well spend the extra $$ and get a cometic gasket. It's one of the most important gaskets in the engine afterall, and cometic is the brand all of the hi-po engine builders that I know use.
  • klumklum Senior Wagonist
    my head gaskets been leaking since i got my honda about 12000 miles ago.. it recently started leaking more consistantly im going to attempt to replace the headgasket and resuse the existing head studs considering the shop just quoted me at 600$ just for labor..
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