Tranny issues - EDIT: NEW INFO

progressprogress Wagonist
in Engine & Drivetrain
After solving my starting issues, a new one has risen.

When downshifting from all gears, I can hear a whirring sound, especially when the clutch pedal is pressed down. Also, I've been having a harder time getting into gear, mostly 1st thru 3rd. I'm hoping a tranny fluid change and tightening of the clutch cable will fix this. I know Honda MTF is highly recommended but is gear oil okay for now? Has anyone ever had this whirring issue before and if so, what did you do to fix it? Thanks in advance!
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Comments

  • ogwagonogwagon Wagonist
    The whirring noise you are describing could be a few different things. I have experienced this several different times and have narrowed it down to these common causes: noisy clutch release bearing(aka throw out bearing), noisy pilot bearing on the flywheel, noisy mainshaft bearing inside the transmission or a clutch disc that is falling apart. If your wagon is having trouble getting into gear and the cable adjustment doesn't work, then you will probably need a new clutch. However you may also want to visually inspect the pedal assembly bracket around the pivot point for the clutch pedal for cracks. A broken pedal assembly will also cause you not to fully engage/disengage the clutch and will therefore make it difficult to shift the transmission into gear. This is a very common problem with the EF/EE chassis cars. If you determine that the clutch needs to be replaced, most clutch kits come complete with the release bearing and pilot bearing. DO NOT use gear oil for your transmission. Use Honda MTF or 10w30 motor oil only. Good luck.
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    ogwagon wrote:
    Use Honda MTF or 10w30 motor oil.

    Don't use 10w30 motor oil or gear oil as this causes rough shifting.This recommendation was made by Honda 2O+ years ago before the New Honda MTF(w/additives to make it smoother shifting).
  • SikocivicSikocivic Wagonist
    SiWagon wrote:
    ogwagon wrote:
    Use Honda MTF or 10w30 motor oil.

    Don't use 10w30 motor oil or gear oil as this causes rough shifting.This recommendation was made by Honda 2O+ years ago before the New Honda MTF(w/additives to make it smoother shifting).
    Helms manual calls for Honda MTF or 10w30 motor oil. I have been using 10w30 in all my Hondas for years with no shifting problems at all.
  • ogwagonogwagon Wagonist
    I prefer Honda MTF but have used 10w30 (as per Honda Service Manual) several times with several cars over the years and have also had no shifting problems also.
  • ogwagonogwagon Wagonist
    Did I say also twice? Sorry :oops:
  • progressprogress Wagonist
    Ok, so I have yet to change the tranny fluid. I will either pick up some Honda MTF or 10W30 (any brand come to mind or does it simply have to be 10W30?). I tried to adjust the cable but only turned the knob a a half turn. It may still need to be adjusted some more though. It still shifts hard into gear and the whirring is still there. I've noticed that the whirring sound occurs when I'm just about to shift into a gear. If I hold the shifter just right before it pops into gear, I can keep the whirring going. Did that make any sense?

    Also, a new starting issue has come up. The last issue was resolved with a new dizzy cap. I'd go to start the engine, and I would just get fast clicking. The battery voltage is at 14.4-ish when the car is on and 13.5 ish when off. I'm pretty sure it should be at 12 ish right? Is my battery in need of replacement? Or perhaps it needs to be filled with distilled water? I've read that here somewhere but not sure if that is the reason I'm getting the fast clicking... Anyways, I'm off to search for these symptoms here on HCW. Thanks again!
  • ogwagonogwagon Wagonist
    It sounds like you may have two seperate problems with the noise and shifting isssues. Is the whirring noise you are describing intensifies as rpm increases and is loudest right before you shift? That sounds like possible bearing noise. Any transmission leaks that may cause the transmission to run extemely low on fluid? Try the transmission fluid change first and take note on how much of the old fluid comes out. Also check the condition of the oil. Is it black or have metal shavings in it? Shine a flashlight on the stream of old oil as it pours out. Does it look like theres alot of "glitter" mixed in with the oil? If very little oil comes out, comes out black and/or has alot of metal particles floating in it, you may have bearings damaged inside the transmission. Try this first and see what happens after the transmission oil change. You could possibly still have a bad clutch release bearing and/or pilot bearing. Its hard to diagnose this type of problem with out actually being there to drive the car and listen to the noise first hand. If you have never replaced the clutch and this is still the original unit, it would be a good idea to replace this anyway and in doing so you can replace the clutch release bearing and pilot bearing at the same time.
    As far as the shifting problem is concerned, did you inspect the pedal assembly bracket for cracks? Did the shifting feel any better after the adjustment or exactly the same? Try adjusting it more and see if there is any change.
    If it feels somewhat better, then the problem lies with the engagement/disengagement of the clutch and probably not the transmission. Most likely the clutch disc is worn/damaged, the pedal assembly is cracked and not allowing full travel of the clutch fork, or the clutch cable is worn/stretched. I have also seen this problem caused by very low oil level in the transmission. If after checking these items and changing the transmission oil you continue to have issues,
    you will have to drop the transmission and inspect and/or replace the clutch and associated bearings and go from there.
    Now going back to your starting issue. If you suspect a bad battery, you can take it to most auto parts stores and have them test it free of charge. First check all of your grounds. Pay particular attention to the main chassis ground going from the transmission to the body right under the battery tray area and then to the battery negative terminal. If it's dirty/rusty anywhere it makes contact, clean it with a wire brush or sand paper to ensure good contact. If its corroded (green), replace it. Try that first. Then check the electrical connections at the starter motor solenoid. There should be one heavy gauge wire and a thin gauge black/white wire. Make sure these are securely attached and free or corosion. If that doesn't work try whacking the starter solenoid with a long extension and hammer. If you find that after whacking the starter solenoid the car starts, then replace your starter motor assembly. The solenoid sits right above the starter motor and is a cylinder shape that is roughly 1/4 the size of the motor itself. It is attached to the starter motor and comes complete with a new starter if you replace it. I hope this info helps. Good luck.
  • progressprogress Wagonist
    ogwagon wrote:
    It sounds like you may have two seperate problems with the noise and shifting isssues. Is the whirring noise you are describing intensifies as rpm increases and is loudest right before you shift? That sounds like possible bearing noise. Any transmission leaks that may cause the transmission to run extemely low on fluid? Try the transmission fluid change first and take note on how much of the old fluid comes out. Also check the condition of the oil. Is it black or have metal shavings in it? Shine a flashlight on the stream of old oil as it pours out. Does it look like theres alot of "glitter" mixed in with the oil? If very little oil comes out, comes out black and/or has alot of metal particles floating in it, you may have bearings damaged inside the transmission. Try this first and see what happens after the transmission oil change. You could possibly still have a bad clutch release bearing and/or pilot bearing. Its hard to diagnose this type of problem with out actually being there to drive the car and listen to the noise first hand. If you have never replaced the clutch and this is still the original unit, it would be a good idea to replace this anyway and in doing so you can replace the clutch release bearing and pilot bearing at the same time.
    As far as the shifting problem is concerned, did you inspect the pedal assembly bracket for cracks? Did the shifting feel any better after the adjustment or exactly the same? Try adjusting it more and see if there is any change.
    If it feels somewhat better, then the problem lies with the engagement/disengagement of the clutch and probably not the transmission. Most likely the clutch disc is worn/damaged, the pedal assembly is cracked and not allowing full travel of the clutch fork, or the clutch cable is worn/stretched. I have also seen this problem caused by very low oil level in the transmission. If after checking these items and changing the transmission oil you continue to have issues,
    you will have to drop the transmission and inspect and/or replace the clutch and associated bearings and go from there.
    Now going back to your starting issue. If you suspect a bad battery, you can take it to most auto parts stores and have them test it free of charge. First check all of your grounds. Pay particular attention to the main chassis ground going from the transmission to the body right under the battery tray area and then to the battery negative terminal. If it's dirty/rusty anywhere it makes contact, clean it with a wire brush or sand paper to ensure good contact. If its corroded (green), replace it. Try that first. Then check the electrical connections at the starter motor solenoid. There should be one heavy gauge wire and a thin gauge black/white wire. Make sure these are securely attached and free or corosion. If that doesn't work try whacking the starter solenoid with a long extension and hammer. If you find that after whacking the starter solenoid the car starts, then replace your starter motor assembly. The solenoid sits right above the starter motor and is a cylinder shape that is roughly 1/4 the size of the motor itself. It is attached to the starter motor and comes complete with a new starter if you replace it. I hope this info helps. Good luck.

    ogwagon, thanks for the info! It's truly appreciated! I will be doing the tranny oil change tommorow morning as I have some free time finally. I will be using 10W30 as I didn't have a chance to pass by a Honda dealer to get some Honda MTF. I will also look at the pedal assembly and the starter solenoid as well. Battery too! Again, thanks for the info and I will defintely update tomorrow evening.
  • progressprogress Wagonist
    Okay, I went and changed out the tranny fluid although I used 10w30 instead of Honda MTF. Shifting seems the same but I've read here it may take some mileage before improvements are noticed.

    Tried adjusting the cable and it seems better. Going to try to adjust it a bit more but I've noticed it seems like I won't have anymore adjustability as the knob is coming close to the end of the threaded piece. FYI, I pulled this cable from a junkyard wagon so maybe it is already stretched past the point of adjustments? We couldn't find a new cable anywhere at the time.


    I looked up at the pedal assembly and I didn't notice any cracks and wgen pressing on the clutch pedal with my hand, didn't see the pedal move side to side at all. The pivot looked good as well with very little movement.

    As far as I can tell without looking at the previous owner's receipts, I think it still may be the original clutch. If the problem persists I may take it in to a local shop and hzve thrm look into it.

    Thoughts?
  • JakerJaker familEE
    I've been driving Hondas for 24 years now. The only starter failures I've ever experienced were corrected with a $7 contact kit from the dealer or the auto parts place, and about 1 hour's worth of work. The starter solenoid has some copper contacts inside that close the circuit for the starter motor when the solenoid kicks the gear out. Those contacts erode over the years to a point where they start making intermitant contact, and eventually no contact at all. It literally takes 20 minutes to change the contacts once the starter is out of the car.

    I've also seen this sort of starter behaviour from a loose battery terminal. Give them a good firm wiggle. If they move at all, they're too loose, and this is likely what's causing the starter issues.
  • ogwagonogwagon Wagonist
    progress wrote:
    Okay, I went and changed out the tranny fluid although I used 10w30 instead of Honda MTF. Shifting seems the same but I've read here it may take some mileage before improvements are noticed.

    Tried adjusting the cable and it seems better. Going to try to adjust it a bit more but I've noticed it seems like I won't have anymore adjustability as the knob is coming close to the end of the threaded piece. FYI, I pulled this cable from a junkyard wagon so maybe it is already stretched past the point of adjustments? We couldn't find a new cable anywhere at the time.


    I looked up at the pedal assembly and I didn't notice any cracks and wgen pressing on the clutch pedal with my hand, didn't see the pedal move side to side at all. The pivot looked good as well with very little movement.

    As far as I can tell without looking at the previous owner's receipts, I think it still may be the original clutch. If the problem persists I may take it in to a local shop and hzve thrm look into it.

    Thoughts?
    Replacing the clutch cable would be a good idea, especially if you found the adjustment you just made improved the problem. Even if a new cable does not completely resolve your problem at least you are isolating the cause by eliminating other possible factors. It looks like you have exhausted all other possible causes. At this point I feel the transmission is probably going to have to come down. I had a similar problem on a car a while ago and after checking everything I suggested to you, I reluctantly removed the transmission to find a broken spring on the disc causing the problem. It was broken in half and had managed to bounce around in there and destroyed some of the friction material on the disc. It made a type of whirring/light grinding noise as the remaining clutch material made contact with the flywheel. It was also difficult to shift into gear. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Let us know how it turns out.
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    You guys MISSED the point.I never mentioned shifting problems.
    :o I just said smoootherr shifting.

    I use to use 10w-30 oil too.It felt fine to me until one day I drove my friends Civic .It shifted smoother.He told me his Acura mechanic put in Honda MTF.

    As I said earlier Honda does mention using 10w-30 oil,BUT that shop manual is 2O years old.NOW Honda shop manuals say use Honda MTF.
    Honda quote:
    Using mtr oil can cause stiffer shifting 'cuz it doesn't contain the proper additives.
  • HaydzHaydz Moderator
    Honda MTF truely is awesome shit. Redline causes glazing, other oils cause crunches etc.

    HONDA MTF FTW!
  • DarrenDarren Wagonist
    As for the cable, you should be able to use any EF Clutch Cable, no?

    I've used a CRX Si Cable for all my B-series swaps in my Crxes... should be the same as the wagon...
  • progressprogress Wagonist
    SIWagon and Haydz, I have used Honda MTF but that was in my old CRX. The Honda dealer was closed when I was planning on changing my tranny fluids. Since I've some extra cash, I may pick some up on the way home tonite.

    Darren, the clutch cable currently being used as well as the spare one I have are from an ef and an ee although I can't remember which is which.

    ogwagon, could my clutch issue be revolving around the clutch release arm (I'm not remembering the proper name here) not completely releasing the clutch?

    The car shifts okay from 1st, 2nd and 3rd if I shift between 2500-3000 rpms. Anything above that and it's harder to shift out of or get into 1st, 2nd or 3rd.
  • Eagle BeagleEagle Beagle familEE
    Your sure you're progress...



    Man...

    :shock:
  • DarrenDarren Wagonist
    progress wrote:
    Darren, the clutch cable currently being used as well as the spare one I have are from an ef and an ee although I can't remember which is which.

    The car shifts okay from 1st, 2nd and 3rd if I shift between 2500-3000 rpms. Anything above that and it's harder to shift out of or get into 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

    and you couldn't find a ef cable out there.. that sucks

    the shifting sounds like synchro trouble to me, does it grind at all?
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    progress wrote:
    I've been having a harder time getting into gear, mostly 1st thru 3rd...Going to adjust more but noticed it won't have anymore adjustability as the knob is coming close to the end of the threaded piece...without looking at the previous owner's receipts, I think it may be the original clutch.

    Unless the cable is wrong or bad .Peeps doesn't it sound like a worn clutch :?: .
  • DarrenDarren Wagonist
    SiWagon wrote:
    progress wrote:
    I've been having a harder time getting into gear, mostly 1st thru 3rd...Going to adjust more but noticed it won't have anymore adjustability as the knob is coming close to the end of the threaded piece...without looking at the previous owner's receipts, I think it may be the original clutch.

    Unless the cable is wrong or bad .Peeps doesn't it sound like a worn clutch.

    definitely sounds like it, however you won't be 100% sure until you crack the bell housing... so we've been trying to eliminate other issues until there's nothing left... to try to avoid separation...
  • progressprogress Wagonist
    Eagle Beagle, sometimes I wonder if I should change my name to "Regress" or "Backwards"! lol!

    Darren and SiWagon, I'm hoping to eliminate everything I can before I have to drop the tranny and inspect the clutch. I will try my spare cable and maybe even buying a new cable as well as switching to Honda MTF. Thanks again for the help guys!
  • DarrenDarren Wagonist
    Good luck, keep us updated...
  • Eagle BeagleEagle Beagle familEE
    getting the fast clicking
    what...relay noise...???

    try palls pushing the wagon...
    you/anyone steering and shifting...
    that must tell some tales...
    a hill (down : )would be nice...

    no engine running...
  • ogwagonogwagon Wagonist
    The clutch release fork is not likely the cause. It's time to drop that trans and see what the clutch looks like.
  • Eagle BeagleEagle Beagle familEE
    It's time to drop that trans and see
    that's 100%
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    You may want to check if the clutch cable was routed correctly.
  • DarrenDarren Wagonist
    ogwagon wrote:
    The clutch release fork is not likely the cause. It's time to drop that trans and see what the clutch looks like.

    I agree... if you've tried everything else, it's all that's left :)
  • progressprogress Wagonist
    Well, it finally happened. Even after switching the cables out, I cannot get into gear when the engine is running. Starting the engine in gear causes the car to jump and trying to get into gear while the engine is on makes the car want to move. This tells me the clutch is still engaged and I have a problem with the throwout/release bearing correct? With the cold weather and my inexperience in dropping trannys and doing clutch work, I'm most likely dropping the car off at a local shop and letting them deal with it. Unless anyone here in the Poconos/Northern NJ area wants to help me out.

    Thanks for all the advice guys! Now I know why I'm on this site all the time!!
  • JakerJaker familEE
    Take a closer look at the pedal assembly (really close look) before you go giving your hard earned money to a shop.
  • bam-bambam-bam Council Member
    Jaker wrote:
    Take a closer look at the pedal assembly (really close look) before you go giving your hard earned money to a shop.

    He's right.
  • progressprogress Wagonist
    Jaker and Bam, I'll double check the pedal assembly again in the morning. I didn't find anything the first time I checked it though. No side to side play or excess motion. Your thinking is as I adjusted the cable, the pedal assembly weakened?
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