when i lived in africa my toyota hilux had locking diffs... you would have to get out and lock the shafts manually... kina a pain but it was alright. i guess for the rest of the AWD they probly just ran AWD all the time... with solid or welded diffs.. it was probly a rough ride but hay whatever works... just seemed like I had more power with a solid 1pc drive shaft then this new VC coupler... ill have to ask Jaker how his carbon shaft works
when i lived in africa my toyota hilux had locking diffs... you would have to get out and lock the shafts manually... kina a pain but it was alright. i guess for the rest of the AWD they probly just ran AWD all the time... with solid or welded diffs.. it was probly a rough ride but hay whatever works... just seemed like I had more power with a solid 1pc drive shaft then this new VC coupler... ill have to ask Jaker how his carbon shaft works
my current toyota pickup has the Asin Locking HUB's your speaking of...
Since my car is RWD only, I have no use for any sort of viscous coupler. I NEED all the power to go to the back wheels. It'd be kind of useless otherwise. My 1 piece driveshaft does just that - sends all the power to the back wheels.
Superhatch: your proposed setup wouldn't be any different than keeping the VC in the middle. Since the driveshaft is solidly attached to the rear diff, the back wheels would make it turn any time the back wheels were turning. You would gain no advantage that I can think of by moving the VC to right next to the transfer case. It could be lighter, but that's about the only advantage I could see. And from talking to the boys at ACPT that made my driveshaft, that setup would be entirely too long for anything other than CF.
The OEM shafts are made of steel pipe/tubing. Pretty thin walled as well.
As stated, I don't know jack about awd systems, so this thread is the start of my education.
I had an ah-ha moment when you said the back would still spin, that makes sense. And while in theory the short No1 and long No2 would be performing the same function, the whole idea would be to lighten the assembly up.
I guess in the end I just want to ensure that my drive line can handle 300hp, and its looking like my only option is to get custom stuff for the whole thing, which doesn't sound cheap.
As stated, I don't know jack about awd systems, so this thread is the start of my education.
I had an ah-ha moment when you said the back would still spin, that makes sense. And while in theory the short No1 and long No2 would be performing the same function, the whole idea would be to lighten the assembly up.
I guess in the end I just want to ensure that my drive line can handle 300hp, and its looking like my only option is to get custom stuff for the whole thing, which doesn't sound cheap.
not necessarily... im in the process of making a list of pieces and parts to convert to a solid shaft for very cheap, the system will use two solid shafts connected at a center bearing support (similar to tractor trailers)
given, that still doesnt solve the problem with the bevel gears...
As stated, I don't know jack about awd systems, so this thread is the start of my education.
I had an ah-ha moment when you said the back would still spin, that makes sense. And while in theory the short No1 and long No2 would be performing the same function, the whole idea would be to lighten the assembly up.
I guess in the end I just want to ensure that my drive line can handle 300hp, and its looking like my only option is to get custom stuff for the whole thing, which doesn't sound cheap.
not necessarily... I'm in the process of making a list of pieces and parts to convert to a solid shaft for very cheap, the system will use two solid shafts connected at a center bearing support (similar to tractor trailers)
given, that still doesn't solve the problem with the bevel gears...
that's what I'm concerned about.. the bevel gears... like i said before the solid one piece shaft spins all 4 wheels. its just the bevel gears cant handle it.if there was a way to transfer the power with a 2pc drive shaft with a box and a 2 way u joint of some type in the middle so the back could take some of the pressure off the bevel gears.... I'm not sure though .... i think we are in new territory boys
I think you guys might be underestimating the drive train a little.
There are two breakages i have ever seen in high power - the one in this thread and also the transfer case that turbo_teg blew apart. There are numerous other examples of power in excess of 250hp and still running strong.
I think you guys might be underestimating the drive train a little.
There are two breakages i have ever seen in high power - the one in this thread and also the transfer case that turbo_teg blew apart. There are numerous other examples of power in excess of 250hp and still running strong.
the bevel gears in my trans were completely sheared off when i got my wago... looked like two metal ice cream cones
and that isnt the first time ive seen that
your right about one thing, i have seen quite a few people (running the VC) with over 250 hp and not break anything
but almost everyone ive seen with the solid shaft has ran into this issue, im thinking there is far more stress put on the gears without the VC in the driveline
My main problem is that I'm trying to build a bullet proof DD as well as hit 300hp. I'm WAY overbuilding the engine. Perhaps I should drop it down to 250 and then rebuild the driveline at the same time to ensure everything is as strong as possible.
My main problem is that I'm trying to build a bullet proof DD as well as hit 300hp. I'm WAY overbuilding the engine. Perhaps I should drop it down to 250 and then rebuild the driveline at the same time to ensure everything is as strong as possible.
thats exactly what im doing... solid shaft, LSD in the rear, Vitara's/custom length rods in the engine... im shooting for 250ish at the wheels but ill also be able to disengage the rear driveline at will
ive said it b4 and ill say it again the bevel gears are the problem..... if there was a way to cryo freeze the 2 gears like they do break roters to make them super strong i think they driveline would be fine up to another 100 hp... so 350 total... just a thought... maybe you would have to rebuild your vc coupler with some new parts instead of the 20 year old parts but i think it should hold....
ive said it b4 and ill say it again the bevel gears are the problem..... if there was a way to cryo freeze the 2 gears like they do break roters to make them super strong i think they driveline would be fine up to another 100 hp... so 350 total... just a thought... maybe you would have to rebuild your vc coupler with some new parts instead of the 20 year old parts but i think it should hold....
the VC isnt rebuildable...
but the poster that was talking about Mfactory custom gear sets earlier in this thread may be able to help you out with the cryo freezing situation, i know Mfactory will do cryo freezing for entire gear sets... i dont see why they couldnt do it for the bevel gears (ive been considering it for a while now)
hey JL56TC question for you?.... i have a d16z6 sohc turbo motor i built that was in my civic hatch. it put down 306whp @ 13psi, i was running a stage 3 6 puck sprung on it. long storie short i totalled it and buaght the car back now i want to put the motor in my rt4wd but im not sure if the clutch and pres. plate are the same or will even work from a fwd to a 4wd. what clutch are you running and is it for a fwd ef or 4wd?
my last turbo'd rt4wd only had 200whp and i put a new oem clutch and after about a year it started slipping and shortly after i traded it so i never upgraded the clutch... and now with this motor im not sure, and dont want to put it in and realize its not going to work. so if you or anyone has any info that would be awesome thanks bro!
its for a rt but i do think they are all the same. i have only had awd hondas so i really dont know for sure.. go to the orielly autoparts website and see if the stock rt and the crx ones are the same part # to make sure.. i also know that FWD makes way more hp then the RT turbo. my friend has a CRX with about the smae set up and he is making quite a bit more power then me... i dont know about using your old clutch in the wagon though i know it wasnt cheap but i would strongly advise buying a new one. the other thing is you have to make sure your bevel gears can handel the power( which i dont belive it can) but i would try it out anyway. you have nothing to loose if you just slap in your old set up right.. the worst that can happen is .. it doesnt work.
its for a rt but i do think they are all the same. i have only had awd hondas so i really dont know for sure.. go to the orielly autoparts website and see if the stock rt and the crx ones are the same part # to make sure.. i also know that FWD makes way more hp then the RT turbo. my friend has a CRX with about the smae set up and he is making quite a bit more power then me... i dont know about using your old clutch in the wagon though i know it wasnt cheap but i would strongly advise buying a new one. the other thing is you have to make sure your bevel gears can handel the power( which i dont belive it can) but i would try it out anyway. you have nothing to loose if you just slap in your old set up right.. the worst that can happen is .. it doesnt work.
1: the clutches aren't always the same... the 88 RT4wd trans had the Devil 21 spline input shafts and requires a different clutch, the 89 and up RT4wd transmissions can use the same clutch setup as any other D series transmission
2: if you had the EXACT same setup as your friend, you would make the EXACT same power... the Rt4wd uses a regular D series engine (D16a6)
its for a rt but i do think they are all the same. i have only had awd hondas so i really dont know for sure.. go to the orielly autoparts website and see if the stock rt and the crx ones are the same part # to make sure.. i also know that FWD makes way more hp then the RT turbo. my friend has a CRX with about the smae set up and he is making quite a bit more power then me... i dont know about using your old clutch in the wagon though i know it wasnt cheap but i would strongly advise buying a new one. the other thing is you have to make sure your bevel gears can handel the power( which i dont belive it can) but i would try it out anyway. you have nothing to loose if you just slap in your old set up right.. the worst that can happen is .. it doesnt work.
1: the clutches aren't always the same... the 88 RT4wd trans had the Devil 21 spline input shafts and requires a different clutch, the 89 and up RT4wd transmissions can use the same clutch setup as any other D series transmission
2: if you had the EXACT same setup as your friend, you would make the EXACT same power... the Rt4wd uses a regular D series engine (D16a6)
lol no... bc 1 is fwd and one is awd..... remember the power is being split between all 4 wheels instead of just 2.... there isnt tons of loss but a decent amountgets "lost in translation"
its for a rt but i do think they are all the same. i have only had awd hondas so i really dont know for sure.. go to the orielly autoparts website and see if the stock rt and the crx ones are the same part # to make sure.. i also know that FWD makes way more hp then the RT turbo. my friend has a CRX with about the smae set up and he is making quite a bit more power then me... i dont know about using your old clutch in the wagon though i know it wasnt cheap but i would strongly advise buying a new one. the other thing is you have to make sure your bevel gears can handel the power( which i dont belive it can) but i would try it out anyway. you have nothing to loose if you just slap in your old set up right.. the worst that can happen is .. it doesnt work.
1: the clutches aren't always the same... the 88 RT4wd trans had the Devil 21 spline input shafts and requires a different clutch, the 89 and up RT4wd transmissions can use the same clutch setup as any other D series transmission
2: if you had the EXACT same setup as your friend, you would make the EXACT same power... the Rt4wd uses a regular D series engine (D16a6)
lol no... bc 1 is fwd and one is awd..... remember the power is being split between all 4 wheels instead of just 2.... there isnt tons of loss but a decent amountgets "lost in translation"
yeah, but you also have the added traction of the rear wheels... a boosted rt4wd wago with ~300 hp isnt going to be much slower than a boosted civic with ~300... and at the crank (which is what i was talking about earlier since you said the engine didnt make as much power... they would make the EXACT same amount of power)
The crank???? to tell you the truth the the hp at the crank dosent mean a thing if you cant get it to the ground... i am talking actuall dyno # i think he was over my hp by almost 28hp.... yeah true my launches are just as fast if not faster. but he also waighs about 300lbs less than me... if not more couse he waighs less then my 350lbs a$$ lol.. the reason you loose power is bc i have a lot more moving parts which require more energy. in turn loosing power. you said it your self that its not going to be that much slower but you admited that it would be infact slower. the other thing is show me where a 450 hp d16 wagon is and i will bow to them... its just not that easy when dealing with awd. i know of a few crx and civics running that with no problems.... I will admit at the crank... they are probly the same but not on the street... like I said they are ABOUT the same but he is still making more in his rex then i am in my wagon...... anyone else have any thoughts????
the one in the middle that runs a 13 is a b series... but that rex is something else...wow wow.. i have seen all those vids b4. look all im saying is that there is no way that my rt is ever going to have as much power as my friends rex period. unless i run a difrent set up then him... the dyno # dont lie and they were tuned by the same person on almost the same map
part of the reason i got into this mess in the fist place wasnt becouse my motor went but becouse my driveline went. if i had a fwd i dont think i would have had to post this topic in the first place
Right but you're making out that the RT4WD gearbox is weak, so including your box, XS powers and turbo_teg - they are the ONLY RT4WD L3s i have ever seen with problems.
By the way, they are all D-series running the L3 RT4WD box. None of the vids i posted are B-series.
Let's look at this rationally.. you have a Civic Wagon that has, at a guess between 100,000 and 200,000 miles on the gearbox without a rebuild. Then you're asking it to go in excess of double the power it was designed to handle. Do you really think it's fair to expect it to handle that power? I do not. Rebuild the gearbox properly and learn how to apply power by using the clutch correctly (i.e. preloading etc).
I think you'll find that your claims of weakness really have no basis other than age of equipment and method of use.
correction.... i was reading the authors reply to a question and he was talking about a b series... my mastake... i have never claimed that the l 3 was the problem only that my bevel gears ( which btw were brand new) were the weak spot on my wagon.. i shattered them even with a 2 piece shaft. and i have been driving a stick since i was 14... i think i might be qualified to say that i know how to apply the correct clutch pressure. DSM's have weak transmissions.. lets be honest i have done alot of other builds with much more HP then this thing and i havent had to deal with stuff like a VC coupler. or bevel gears.. i dont under estamate the L3 I just have seen so many problems with my drive line from the bevel gears back I am starting to think it just cant handel it.... understand that the stuff was old but there is no reason for my new stuff to have problems... which i have. i wouldnt own a wagon unless i felt like it was a challenge. but at the same time evryone must admit a FWD with the same evrything is going to make more WHP then an RT will... That was the original question at hand period.
Right but you're making out that the RT4WD gearbox is weak, so including your box, XS powers and turbo_teg - they are the ONLY RT4WD L3s i have ever seen with problems.
By the way, they are all D-series running the L3 RT4WD box. None of the vids i posted are B-series.
Let's look at this rationally.. you have a Civic Wagon that has, at a guess between 100,000 and 200,000 miles on the gearbox without a rebuild. Then you're asking it to go in excess of double the power it was designed to handle. Do you really think it's fair to expect it to handle that power? I do not. Rebuild the gearbox properly and learn how to apply power by using the clutch correctly (i.e. preloading etc).
I think you'll find that your claims of weakness really have no basis other than age of equipment and method of use.
i will say that i have seen atleast 10 cases of the bevel gear failures... four of which were older stock wagons
but im not saying the gear box is weak, nor is the rear end... just that the Bevel Gears are the "weakest"...
correction.... i was reading the authors reply to a question and he was talking about a b series... my mastake... i have never claimed that the l 3 was the problem only that my bevel gears ( which btw were brand new) were the weak spot on my wagon.. i shattered them even with a 2 piece shaft. and i have been driving a stick since i was 14... i think i might be qualified to say that i know how to apply the correct clutch pressure. DSM's have weak transmissions.. lets be honest i have done alot of other builds with much more HP then this thing and i havent had to deal with stuff like a VC coupler. or bevel gears.. i dont under estamate the L3 I just have seen so many problems with my drive line from the bevel gears back I am starting to think it just cant handel it.... understand that the stuff was old but there is no reason for my new stuff to have problems... which i have. i wouldnt own a wagon unless i felt like it was a challenge. but at the same time evryone must admit a FWD with the same evrything is going to make more WHP then an RT will... That was the original question at hand period.
im looking foward to testing this with my setup, minus the VC...
Comments
Move the VC so that:
1. You aren't using 2 short shafts
2. You aren't spinning 1 shaft for no reason
3. You can make 1 long shaft out of a lightweight material.
Thoughts?
Also, what are our shafts made of, aluminum?
Superhatch: your proposed setup wouldn't be any different than keeping the VC in the middle. Since the driveshaft is solidly attached to the rear diff, the back wheels would make it turn any time the back wheels were turning. You would gain no advantage that I can think of by moving the VC to right next to the transfer case. It could be lighter, but that's about the only advantage I could see. And from talking to the boys at ACPT that made my driveshaft, that setup would be entirely too long for anything other than CF.
The OEM shafts are made of steel pipe/tubing. Pretty thin walled as well.
I had an ah-ha moment when you said the back would still spin, that makes sense. And while in theory the short No1 and long No2 would be performing the same function, the whole idea would be to lighten the assembly up.
I guess in the end I just want to ensure that my drive line can handle 300hp, and its looking like my only option is to get custom stuff for the whole thing, which doesn't sound cheap.
not necessarily... im in the process of making a list of pieces and parts to convert to a solid shaft for very cheap, the system will use two solid shafts connected at a center bearing support (similar to tractor trailers)
given, that still doesnt solve the problem with the bevel gears...
that's what I'm concerned about.. the bevel gears... like i said before the solid one piece shaft spins all 4 wheels. its just the bevel gears cant handle it.if there was a way to transfer the power with a 2pc drive shaft with a box and a 2 way u joint of some type in the middle so the back could take some of the pressure off the bevel gears.... I'm not sure though .... i think we are in new territory boys
There are two breakages i have ever seen in high power - the one in this thread and also the transfer case that turbo_teg blew apart. There are numerous other examples of power in excess of 250hp and still running strong.
the bevel gears in my trans were completely sheared off when i got my wago... looked like two metal ice cream cones
and that isnt the first time ive seen that
your right about one thing, i have seen quite a few people (running the VC) with over 250 hp and not break anything
but almost everyone ive seen with the solid shaft has ran into this issue, im thinking there is far more stress put on the gears without the VC in the driveline
thats exactly what im doing... solid shaft, LSD in the rear, Vitara's/custom length rods in the engine... im shooting for 250ish at the wheels but ill also be able to disengage the rear driveline at will
the VC isnt rebuildable...
but the poster that was talking about Mfactory custom gear sets earlier in this thread may be able to help you out with the cryo freezing situation, i know Mfactory will do cryo freezing for entire gear sets... i dont see why they couldnt do it for the bevel gears (ive been considering it for a while now)
my last turbo'd rt4wd only had 200whp and i put a new oem clutch and after about a year it started slipping and shortly after i traded it so i never upgraded the clutch... and now with this motor im not sure, and dont want to put it in and realize its not going to work. so if you or anyone has any info that would be awesome thanks bro!
And even if you can still buy one it lists for $1300 from Honda, $900 from majestic and the like.
1: the clutches aren't always the same... the 88 RT4wd trans had the Devil 21 spline input shafts and requires a different clutch, the 89 and up RT4wd transmissions can use the same clutch setup as any other D series transmission
2: if you had the EXACT same setup as your friend, you would make the EXACT same power... the Rt4wd uses a regular D series engine (D16a6)
lol no... bc 1 is fwd and one is awd..... remember the power is being split between all 4 wheels instead of just 2.... there isnt tons of loss but a decent amountgets "lost in translation"
yeah, but you also have the added traction of the rear wheels... a boosted rt4wd wago with ~300 hp isnt going to be much slower than a boosted civic with ~300... and at the crank (which is what i was talking about earlier since you said the engine didnt make as much power... they would make the EXACT same amount of power)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3HaVRts8_o into the 13s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxtf3_IHTfs 400HP that gets raped
is the one in the 13's in the 400hp range?
if so i would think it could do much better than that
By the way, they are all D-series running the L3 RT4WD box. None of the vids i posted are B-series.
Let's look at this rationally.. you have a Civic Wagon that has, at a guess between 100,000 and 200,000 miles on the gearbox without a rebuild. Then you're asking it to go in excess of double the power it was designed to handle. Do you really think it's fair to expect it to handle that power? I do not. Rebuild the gearbox properly and learn how to apply power by using the clutch correctly (i.e. preloading etc).
I think you'll find that your claims of weakness really have no basis other than age of equipment and method of use.
i will say that i have seen atleast 10 cases of the bevel gear failures... four of which were older stock wagons
but im not saying the gear box is weak, nor is the rear end... just that the Bevel Gears are the "weakest"...
im looking foward to testing this with my setup, minus the VC...