Uhh ohh, car died =[ help!

Ok, so like the title says my wagon died yesterday. I was going down route 50 and I heard my window squeaking so I looked over to see what was squeaking. Well as soon as I looked over I kind of felt the car hesitate and I looked at the tach and the RPMs just dropped to zero. Crap. So I hit the gas, nothing. Crap. So I pulled over and popped the hood and I could smell some kind of burning smell kind of, and there was a little bit of smoke coming from the area of the timing belt cover. I assumed that I had broken the timing belt and was screwed, and my friends dad who towed me home agreed. But this morning I checked and the timing belt seems to be fine, although I don't know how to get it to rotate to check the whole thing. So my question is, what do you think could be wrong? It turns over, but just cranks and cranks. I know nothing about these wagons, I just bought it to deliver pizza in and 2 months later its done. Any help is appreciated...
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Comments

  • JakerJaker familEE
    When you crank it, does it seem to spin at the normal speed it did before you had trouble, or does it seem to be turning over faster than usual? The timing belt can lose some teeth without actually breaking clean through. If that's the case, the belt may appear intact to the nakid eye, but the timing between the crank and cam will obviously be way off, and the cam may not even be turning. There's a rubber plug in the fender liner inside the wheelwell on the driver's side. Pop the plug out, and put a 17mm (might be 19mm) socket into the crankshaft pulley bolt, throw an extension and a ratchet onto the socket, and turn the engine over by hand. Make sure it's in park (automatic) or in neutral (manual), otherwise, you might have trouble turning it over. It'll still be a little tough to turn. Make sure you take the ratchet and socket/extension off before you walk away from the area, or you'll forget and crank the starter with the tools still attached. It makes a horrible noise, and will break your ratchet or extension. Don't bother asking how I know that last part =) !
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    Well from what I can see, there's no teeth missing from the timing belt. And I have no clue if it's turning over faster than before because I honestly never paid attention to it before this all happened lol soo yea i guess I'm pretty much screwed. And I just realized my driver side cv boot is destroyed. Nice!
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    Pull the cap off and see if the little screw came out of the rotor, if its there have somone crank it over and make sure its spinning. If its not spinning, then something is up with the t-belt. If it is spinning, check ignitor and coil.

    Dont feel bad about the axle. I blew both sides at a race this weekend, lol. Runny grease everywhere....so damn messy.
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    Except for the smokin it sounds or smellls like the ignitor.Same thing happen to me.Goto General Wagon/Honda Discussion:
    viewforum.php?f=16
    then click:
    SiWagon's Tips > Ignition Upgrade Info: (the 4th one down).
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    shenrie wrote:
    Pull the cap off and see if the little screw came out of the rotor, if its there have somone crank it over and make sure its spinning. If its not spinning, then something is up with the t-belt. If it is spinning, check ignitor and coil.

    Dont feel bad about the axle. I blew both sides at a race this weekend, lol. Runny grease everywhere....so damn messy.
    hopefully i dont sound like an idiot, but i have no clue what youre talking about lol
    cap of what and what screw from what rotor?
    i think i know what youre talking about but i dont know what to look for. i took the black casing thing off of the distributor, assuming thats the cap youre referring to and saw a red thing that looks like it spins. i assume thats the rotor youre talking about? but i see no screw in the rotor?
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    SiWagon wrote:
    Except for the smokin it sounds or smellls like the ignitor.Same thing happen to me.Goto General Wagon/Honda Discussion:
    viewforum.php?f=16
    then click:
    SiWagon's Tips > Ignition Upgrade Info: (the 4th one down).
    k i read that just now, but it sounds like even if that were my problem i would actually have to find a way to get the wagon to them to get the dealership to replace it...but how if the car doesnt start? im guessing i would have to have it towed there just to even have them look at it first?
  • jpciiijpciii familEE
    If you take it to a Honda dealership, they are gonna charge you a fortune to fix it.
  • teamolsteamols New Wagonist
    u are forced to do some basic checks spark fuel pressure and cam timing. dont feel bad if u cant. go to a private shop and they will have it diagosed in an hour, then keep on moving
  • Man, all this negative dealership talk! Not all dealerships are overpriced rip-offs! Half the time we save people a lot of money because we know HONDA's and know what fails on what year and model. We can diagnose and fix problems that other shops just guess and replace stuff for. Plus, we have parts to try if something is really funky, where an independent would charge you for it (cause they can't return it) even when it didn't fix the problem. We have techs that have been exclusively Honda at our store too for over 20 years!! We also have all the bulletins and service news plus techline that independents don't have access to.

    Anyway, have the dealership run the VIN to see if the Igniter Recall has been done. If it hasn't, the Igniter would be replaced for FREE, not a fortune. Also check the distributor (make sure the rotor isn't melted and twisted because thats what happens when the bearings go). The Igniter, Coil, Rotor or rotor screw falling out can all cause the problem. Timing Belts can also slip a tooth or more.

    It sounds like you will have to pay someone to diagnose it though if your knowledge of cars is real limited. Just remember, a no start follows the rules of the fire triangle. For any combustion you need: Air (pretty much a given for a car usually), Fuel (make sure you are getting fuel!) and Spark (Plugs, Cap, Rotor, Coil, Ignitor, Distributor, Timing).
  • wagodizzlewagodizzle Council Member and EDM expert
    well i wish your dealership was here.. mine wanted to charge $650 to replace my tierods that they told to my face they would have picked up from the local Autozone (so much for genuine Honda parts) so i was like "screw you" and went to autozone myself, picked up all four tierods for $120 and changed them myself in under 45 minutes. i barely even knew what a tierod was then.

    i could go on about other things but i've covered it before elsewhere
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    ok so as far as soldering the main relay, where do i solder it?
    im gonna try that n then take it from there.
  • The main relay will ALMOST NEVER stop the car from running while driving. So rare I have only heard that a guy had that happen once, never seen it myself. When the main relay goes bad you will usually start the car fine in the morning, get to a store on a hot day, come back out and it will just crank and crank. Open the doors or windows and cool the interior down, wait a couple minutes and it will start like normal. If you have fuel pressure with the key on if you take the fuel filter bleeder bolt loose, then this will not be your problem. Yours sounds more like a timing or spark issue to me.....
  • teamolsteamols New Wagonist
    mike i worked for acura from 1991-1994. private shop now becaue i am treated better, i dont guess and i woud have his civ diagnosed in ten minutes.i work on thousands of different cars and combinations thereof. much harder work.
  • A little clarification. I am not saying all independents are inferior. However, you can't just try parts like a dealership and you don't have all the info we do for Honda's in particular (every Service Manual, Techline, etc.). You or I could diagnose these problems in 10 minutes, I am not discounting your ability as a tech.... I just get tired of everyone acting like the dealership (stealership?) is out to get them. Just like every other business and Independent shop, some are good and others not so good. Can we all be on the same side for the common good, especially on this site? Don't bad-mouth dealerships in general, some of us work there and are enthusiats too. I resent the poor reflection we are given, especially when we can be your best ALLIES in getting info and parts! Let's steer this guy in the direction of help, whether from a dealer or independent or, he most likely needs a trained tech.
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    I would never pay to have a dealership work on my car. Thier labor rates are higher and the parts markup is insane. Sure the Honda techs know thier shit, but not to the extent of whats charged for labor. I guess I just have a hard time paying for stuff that I can fix myself, plus Honda parts are totally resonable when aquired for cost, but retail is a different story. Gimmie a Helms and some rum, and the project will be done shortly...unless the bottle emptys first.

    I know techs at the Honda dealer and even they say their work is overpriced, but its out of their hands. Hell theres guys on here that cant get Honda to replace their seatbelts/parts for free even when Honda has a lifetime warranty on everything seatbelt related.

    Sucks your dealership gets lumped in with all the others, but you have to realize that the majority of dealerships are only about one thing...revenue. Sadly, customer satisfaction has fallen way down the list of priorities of most dealerships.

    Yellowmikebike is right, Ive never had a car stop running because of the main relay. His description and symptons are 100% on teh money. If your sure thats it though, theres numorous writeups on how to fix it out there. Do a little searching.

    My guess is its the ignitor or coil. 95% of the time when the 4th gen civics wont start, the issue lies within the distrubitor.
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    yea thats what everyone keeps saying is that its the distributor so i guess i need to check into that further and actually check to see if im getting spark or anything. if it does turn out to be the distributor, how much do they run from say a junkyard?
  • wagodizzlewagodizzle Council Member and EDM expert
    $25 from my local junkyard. but be wary of those old shits.. it will prolly bust sooner or later anyway.

    you can get remanufactured "new" ones for like $150 with lifetime warranty. which is good because i have had to replace mine about 5 times lol.. so its really shit too but still, lifetime warranty.

    best bet = find a member with a nice used one in the marketplace.
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    wagodizzle wrote:
    $25 from my local junkyard. but be wary of those old shits.. it will prolly bust sooner or later anyway.

    you can get remanufactured "new" ones for like $150 with lifetime warranty. which is good because i have had to replace mine about 5 times lol.. so its really shit too but still, lifetime warranty.

    best bet = find a member with a nice used one in the marketplace.
    ok cool, if nothing else ill just find a used one and if that turns out to actually be the problem then i can get the remanufactured one. does the general consensus seem to be that it probably is my distributor? and when i go to get a distributor, what do i look for? like does any d-series distributor work?
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    Theres no reason to replce the entire dist unless the bearings are bad. Just replace whatever component is bad. Ignitors and coils switch out pretty easily.

    IMO, if you have to replace a "lifetime" dist often, its not worth the hassle....unless you have two of them, lol.
  • wagodizzlewagodizzle Council Member and EDM expert
    wagodizzle wrote:
    $25 from my local junkyard. but be wary of those old shits.. it will prolly bust sooner or later anyway.

    you can get remanufactured "new" ones for like $150 with lifetime warranty. which is good because i have had to replace mine about 5 times lol.. so its really shit too but still, lifetime warranty.

    best bet = find a member with a nice used one in the marketplace.
    like does any d-series distributor work?

    noooooo. its very engine (namely cyl head) specific. for example, if you have a D15B2 DPFI (2WD) engine you want a dizzy for a D15B2. if you have the D16A6 MPFI (4WD) you will need a dizzy for a D16A6...etc...
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    wagodizzle wrote:
    noooooo. its very engine (namely czl head) specific. for example, if you have a D15B2 DPFI (2WD) engine you want a dizzy for a D15B2. if you have the D16A6 MPFI (4WD) you will need a dizzy for a D16A6...etc...

    Im not a 100% on this, but Im prety sure Ive used coils and ignitors from the DPFI dists in the MPFI dists.
  • wagodizzlewagodizzle Council Member and EDM expert
    thats very likely, they look the same lol. someone needs to check part numbers for them. im too lazy. :o
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    wagodizzle wrote:
    noooooo. its very engine (namely cyl head) specific. for example, if you have a D15B2 DPFI (2WD) engine you want a dizzy for a D15B2. if you have the D16A6 MPFI (4WD) you will need a dizzy for a D16A6...etc...
    ok so since i have a 2wd i need one from a d15b2, but what other cars have the same engine? i presume other base model same generation civics would?
  • shenrieshenrie Council Member
    i presume other base model same generation civics would?

    Any 88-91 Civic with DPFI should work. But like I said, theres no reason to replace the entire dist, unless money is no object. If thats the case and your swimming in it, your looking for info in the wrong place ;)
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    well fuck me.
    i've re-soldered the main relay switch, and replaced the entire distributor, and still nothing. i give up. somebody buy this piece from me so i can get something else :(
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    ok so, update time.
    both the old dizzy and new one are bad, im assuming, because it wont get spark. so im about to go back to the junkyard and see if they have another one that hopefully works. BUT i decided randomly to check fuses and the fuse labeled "alternator, solenoid valve" was blown...could this be related to the problem? i replaced the fuse and it still wouldnt start, but if it was blown could that mean that something is wrong with the alternator and thats why all this happened? i really need to get this running again :?
  • wagodizzlewagodizzle Council Member and EDM expert
    the fuse? seriously? YES it can effect it!!

    quick story... so i have just installed my JRSC, and im going for a quick run. well, the alternator contact was very close to the SC manifold, and as i was driving along it happened to touch it and tripped the fuse, completely shutting my car down. the motor just died.

    not thinking the obvious, i didnt check the fuses. just towed it home (luckily it was 2 minutes from my house, my neighbor helped me out).

    got home and saw it was a blown fuse, and i felt like a retard. changed it out and she started right up no problem lol..

    change it and see what happens.. and then afterwards check WHY it blew in the first place.
  • for disributors the only difference on obd0 is mpfi has a cyl sensor in it to fire #1 injector sequence, inside the rest is the same. u can acually repin the plug (big round one) and set yourself up for a mpfi swap in the future :)

    alt fuse, yes explains why you saw smoke from the timing belt (area) most likely alt is on the way out if it didnt puke already. ecu gets power directly from it, hence the car just died,

    independent auto shops, i work and have worked at them for years, we dont just throw parts at cars! lol, customer are very picky about their bills, and want to know exactly how many times we took a piss while we worked on the car! plus we have all the tech bulletins dealers do, plus the internet, and a special site everyone should use; identifix.com these guy's work with the companys directly.

    parts from the dealer, are 80% of the time cheaper! the only problem is..... the idiots in the parts department! they do not know that when honda stopped making the 88-91 alternator and supplies are depleated, you can just use one from 92-95. goes for most parts on our 4th gens. (note) do not explain to them you want to use, or you are building 00' year or whatever on your 88' or whatever year you hybrid. it will melt their brain, they start walking in circles and start bleeding from their ears!
  • BigBurch422BigBurch422 Band Wagon
    yea i figured that fuse being blown was a big deal lol
    well i replaced the fuse and it still wont start, and still wont get spark. could the alternator itself be whats keeping it from getting spark? my dads friend said that it sounds like its cranking slow, could it be that the alternator went out so the battery wasnt getting charged so now the battery only has enough life left in it to crank it over slowly but not enough to get spark to actually start it and obviously not enough that it could continue driving which is why i broke down?
  • wagodizzlewagodizzle Council Member and EDM expert
    if it was smoking, your alternator must have fried. take it out, and inspect it. if its black, and smells burned, its prolly dead :P
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