What would you do? --- D-series or B-series ?
Da1andonlyJinx
Wagonist
Just wanted to get some opinions from my fellow wagoneers.
I'm thinking about doing an LS swap.
I know all the wiring stipulations that would consist of going from obd0 to 0bd1 and from DPFI to MPFI. That to me is really not a factor. I'm going to convert to MPFI and OBD1 weather or not I go with an LS swap or stay D-series.
Now, my question to you is - What would you do and why?
I'm thinking of how much more capable power there is with an LS swap and even more so down the road with the ever so popular LS/VTEC. You then have to think about the hood clearence issues, which mounts are/work the best, the constant vibration you get when using those mounts. I'm kinda on both sides of the fence here guys. I want performance and comfort. I had a 91 hatch with an LS in it, loved the power and speed compared to the SOHC but hated the constant rattling/vibration with the hasport mounts. There is alot of work and cost in order to even install the B-series in the beautiful bronze wagon. To sum it up , The B-series is more of just the power and torque side of things not really comfort. It's a wagon, it's not built for speed. Although you can make them quick if not fast depending on what your goals are. I'm not trying to build a 10 second wagon here. I just want something with about 150 to 200 HP. D-series 150 , B-series 200.
On the other hand, the single cam. Long blocks and trannies are cheap and readily available and i wouldn't have to switch the mounts or the linkage. You can make the SOHC quick but would definetly consist of some power adders, Such as Nitrous, Turbo, Supercharger. You could go all motor but I would rather not. I would rather build a motor strong enough to hold the boost capabilities of turbo or supercharger and nitrous. not always using the nos but just on special occassions.
I know that the B swap is going to be way more expensive and uncomfortable with the most capable horsepower goals.
I also know that the D build has potential to have some decent power for relatively cheap with still keeping the comfort. boost with juice :twisted:
Just trying to get some opinoins out of you guys and see what you thought. I may be swayed to one side or the other. Thanks a bunch.
I'm thinking about doing an LS swap.
I know all the wiring stipulations that would consist of going from obd0 to 0bd1 and from DPFI to MPFI. That to me is really not a factor. I'm going to convert to MPFI and OBD1 weather or not I go with an LS swap or stay D-series.
Now, my question to you is - What would you do and why?
I'm thinking of how much more capable power there is with an LS swap and even more so down the road with the ever so popular LS/VTEC. You then have to think about the hood clearence issues, which mounts are/work the best, the constant vibration you get when using those mounts. I'm kinda on both sides of the fence here guys. I want performance and comfort. I had a 91 hatch with an LS in it, loved the power and speed compared to the SOHC but hated the constant rattling/vibration with the hasport mounts. There is alot of work and cost in order to even install the B-series in the beautiful bronze wagon. To sum it up , The B-series is more of just the power and torque side of things not really comfort. It's a wagon, it's not built for speed. Although you can make them quick if not fast depending on what your goals are. I'm not trying to build a 10 second wagon here. I just want something with about 150 to 200 HP. D-series 150 , B-series 200.
On the other hand, the single cam. Long blocks and trannies are cheap and readily available and i wouldn't have to switch the mounts or the linkage. You can make the SOHC quick but would definetly consist of some power adders, Such as Nitrous, Turbo, Supercharger. You could go all motor but I would rather not. I would rather build a motor strong enough to hold the boost capabilities of turbo or supercharger and nitrous. not always using the nos but just on special occassions.
I know that the B swap is going to be way more expensive and uncomfortable with the most capable horsepower goals.
I also know that the D build has potential to have some decent power for relatively cheap with still keeping the comfort. boost with juice :twisted:
Just trying to get some opinoins out of you guys and see what you thought. I may be swayed to one side or the other. Thanks a bunch.
Comments
B18B + cable box for b16 = winning combination
Then if you feel like giving her a tickle add a snail into the equation.
Hasport mounts do turn a car into a rattlebox. Every b into ef chassis Ive done got the same result, but I knew prior too, so it wasnt a suprise or anything. I use ES inserts and fill the other mounts with window urethane nowadays. Still get stiffer mounts and not near as much rattlebox.
Played with B series since 96ish and love them, Im going d with the current build and play with it for a while cause parts are bountifull and cheap. Staying d also lets me play with the awd stuff a little easier.
Something I've noticed and haven't seen discussed is the feel-the heft of the bswapped car. It doesn't feel nearly as nimble as the d15. Not really a bad feeling, just different...the d feels better driving-wise. Maybe it's just the weight w/o power steering? I do know, and have said before, that If I could only keep one of them I'd choose the stock one.
I would like to build a d16a6 :twisted:
Thats riddiculous... i'd never accept that unless all my interior was stipped and it was all out track based.
I'm pretty bloody picky though.
Both have pros and cons IMO. The following applies to the 2WD chassis only as IMO a B swap into a RT4WD chassis is not a bolt-in affair as custom mounting points and driveshaft stuff complicates things.
D series:
Pros:
- Cheap engines/trannies/OE parts
- Utilize stock mounts - no vibes (unless you go poly)
- No extra weight
- If built properly N/A or boosted correctly it can RAPE a B series
Cons:
- Build parts such as turbos, rods, pistons, etc. cost no less than B series stuff
- Inherently less torque than the 1.8L variety B swaps
- GOOD condition OE parts are hard to find - meaning non smoking engines, non grinding or noisy trannies, etc. At least with B series you can go up through 2001 - IMO the D16Y engines are junk (rod bearing failures/oiling issues) and unless you convert to hydro trannies you're stick in the 80's and 1991 for cable stuff
- Unequal length axles (unless you source uber rare ZC mid shaft)
B series (mainly the 1.8L as I'm not a fan of the B16A unless it's a stripped chassis)
Pros:
- More power and torque while remaining 100% stock. A mildly built N/A or even mildly boosted D will pull about the same, but be under more strain
- More aftermarket support, period
- If upgraded will RAPE a same-modded D series
Cons:
- Aftermarket engine mounts. Certain brands and types can destroy any semblance of idle quality in terms of rattling/buzzing throughout the dash and chassis, but the better brands with mild poly are not much worse than stock.
- Cost of initial swap is more expensive comparitively speaking. Unless you're like Bam Bam and you buy an entire parts car for $400.00, or find a B18A engine for $100.00 a U-Pull-It chances are buying a COMPLETE swap can set you back close to $2,000.00 plus the cost of the aftermarket parts needed like mount kit, linkages, etc. Sure some people have found ways to modify 90-93 Integra linkages and mounts to make the swap work, but for those buying the already fabbed stuff (to make it easier/faster) cost of entry is more
- Extra weight. Honestly this is a non factor for me personally as the extra torque from the 1.8L is worth the weight (total pun intended). I drive fairly agressively and have an auto-X car too, and I don't find the B swap to make the car plow. Proper suspension set-ups/spring rates/shock settings can offset the tendancy to understeer anyways.
- Extra effort to install the swap such as clearnacing the frame rail, hood, and rear subframe. Personally these are quick and easy, but it should still be noted as you don't do these things with a D engine
If we're talking about a DPFI car then both the D and B will have the same headaches in terms of the MPFI swap. Both D and B swaps are available in the OBD0 and OBD1 variety, BUT it's almost mandatory to go OBD1 if you aspire to build a beast SOHC VTEC set-up.
Bottom line?
I personally prefer the B overall for a daily driver. Honestly my semi-built D16A6 NEVER was outrun by an LS swap from the three friends I had try me (one 1992 CX, one 1994 DX coupe, and one 00 hatch) but in the end the LS swap just tugs along at 1500rpm like it's nothing. Had my 11:1CR D16A6 been in a wagon I think the extra weight would have offset some of that quickness that the D had.
IMO B>D
I'm sure I'll catch some hell for this, but re-reading the topic and seeing the D was to include a "power adder" then I'd still say B series all the way.
A boosted honda engine will NEVER be as reliable as a stock or near-stock N/A Honda engine. It's not a question of "if" but more "when" will that boosted D blow up. Sure it's cheap to replace (unless you destroy a built block, then it costs the same to rebuild as a B or F or H block) but I like DRIVING my cars, not having to fix them all the time.
i agree 1000000000%
Of course I'm a dumbass, and am working on LSallmotorv2.0
Errr...I mean in the U.S they are rare.
: )
The long block I might be getting will have to be rebuilt anyway so I'm going to put in some stronger rods and pistons while keeping the same CR in case i decide to turbo later. Really thinking of just putting the spray on it to begin with and go from there. Not trying to make a monster here, just trying to have a little something in my back pocket.
Thanks for all the help guys, I love this forum.
oh. b's all the way. 8)
and an ass like a 10-year-old boy
x2 :shock:
Think it would void the warranty
no hell, true to the point, and ill catch some hell as well.
b-series mount kits, yes they are made to rattle, its not the mounts really that rattle its balance. blueprint and balance your block on the same mounts see what happens, hell just balance the block! also fluidamer makes a real good balancer pully for honda's and cuts at least 60% of the vibes a couple other brands make one also.
best bang for the buck id say is the ls swap, you can get one as new as 01 and still stay obd0 and cable trans (trans 90-93)
drilling holes in the mounts works a little, just keep the holes on the top side, ive made the mistake of, if some worked more will work better. if the holes are on the underside they start to sag and the placement gets all screwed :oops:
Really? Like what?
I've had the same all-stock internals B18C5 now for EIGHT years and it has always ran in top form. I've adjusted the valves, cleaned the K&N air filter, and changed plugs, and other than oil and coolant changes nothing else. It has literally NEVER leaked a drop of oil, ran rough, or had any problems whatsoever even though it's revved to 8500rpm every time it's driven.
I am overdue to change my timing belt and water pump by age though...I'd better get on that.
If you get a clapped out OBD0 B series then sure it's going to have it's own issues, but it's not like there are a TON of clapped out D engines out there too, and don't even get me started on the old DOHC ZC...yikes.
Like what though? What "VTEC parts" are you referring to? The VTEC spool valves are the exact same for the SOHC and DOHC engines. Do you just mean general parts like distributors, and maintenance items? Well yeah there are some more expensive items for the B VTEC engines like their water pumps, but if buying new parts D distributors cost about the same as B stuff, and actually early B18A timing belt/water pump packages are no more expensive than the D stuff. I know this because my job entails having to price the stuff on a daily basis.
I have personally owned a B16A2, B18C1, B18C5, B18B1, 11:1CR D16A6, a stock D15B2, and a stock D16Z6 and working in the field of Honda repair has also afforded me the chance to drive all sorts of set-ups and unless you boost the D or have the SKILLS to really build a D N/A you're better off starting with more power and torque off the bat with a B swap IMO. People love to cite Bisi's "9 second SOHC" and his "12 second full street trim CR-X" as the champion for their D series love, but if it were that easy to do it it'd be done much more than the B swaps. The masses figured out years ago that they could have more power and more reliably (because the B stays stock and makes more power/torque than any stock or even lightly modded D) with a B swap.
I loved my D build - again I never lost to an LS swap in similiar weight chassies to my 1991 DX HB or 1990 STD HB, but not everyone can tear apart and build an engine like I did. If someone is relying on a "low mileage" swap to add bolt-ons to then a B will MURDER the D all day, every day, no exceptions. Nevermind the street racing tales of "this local guy beat all sorts of B swaps with his lowly D" because I actually used to be THAT local guy with the freak D series when I was street racing back in the late 90's - it all came down to drivers not wrining the B engines out like they should have, or having a crappy running B swap because they didn't know how to properly wire stuff, etc.
And lastly if it's about "being different" and going D then save that argument. There is NOTHING "different" any more with Hondas. We have wagons, probably the most different Honda, and even on this small cross section of wagons on this board we've seen identical B swaps, boosted Ds, and even a few B swapped RT4WD versions, etc. If you want "different" go build a non-Honda like a Dodge Omni turbo and murder any Honda you can think of with the same money invested.
It's nice that we have such an even distribution of opinions amongst ourselves here - the poll is pretty close.
but the way the Honda scene has been going, any knucklehead can drop in a B-series now-a-days and its even beginning to be the same with K-series too. I think the real cool stuff is the single cam slammers (vtec or not) that these kids are putting their heart and souls into pumping out very impressive power with. The way I think of it, and this is just a generic comparison, is like old rod builders. Sure you could spend the cash and drop in a V8 crate motor easily, but holy shit is it great to see a Straight 6 blowing doors off of cars. Now we all know that D-series aren't going to be the fastest motors and are surpassed by B-series technologies in different aspects. D's are cheap, reliable, and are equipped in more USDM Honda's. I have never owned a B-series motor (except the B20B4 in my CRV) and I don't really have a want for one. I love D's. And isn't auto modification all about doing something different, I can only take so many EG hatch's with halo projectors, B swaps and and misaligned, cracked, fiberglass body kits spinning the tires at every stoplight.
I'm not calling everyone who who has ever swapped a B-series a idiot, just the dummies that have a shop install a fresh off the boat motor then rev up on me at stop light when I have both my kids in the back of my wagon, those kids should be forced to scrape the skin off their knuckles with the casting burs on the inside of my D-series blocks ass!!!!!!!! DAMN RIGHT!! Build a D and have some fun. Personally, its DOHC ZC's for me!
to me its, "what are your demands or needs", street car? autoX? strip? gas saver?
i like the dohc zc alot, mainly because its a bolt in swap, very dependable and fun gas saver.
the B16 is a good motor as well, it feels just like a dohc zc until vtec kicks in and then the zc feel gets angry. my favorite B16 i built was obd0 block with gsr head and B18cR cams and springs. was a poor mans B16B and a happy revver
and as you get to the top of the B-motor chain, the lovely B18cR is the best you can get, hand built by honda's best men.
in any case if taken care of all honda motors need little tinkering at all, just regular service, oil changes, plugs, ect.
build a car that suits your needs then take care of it. 8)
B-series has more potential, as well as more HP with reliability if you just leave it semi stock (no major adders like boost).
But anyone who doubts the D should check out Bisi. It can make power, its just a question of what your willing to put into it. It will never be the biggest dog in the yard, but with the weight of wagons being so low, it doesn't have to be.