Raising/Lowering specifics
noahrexion
Wagonist
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4390
This seems to be the most comprehensive thread on what works/doesn't work. Though a bit confusing to me so I thought I would ask a specific question here about what works/doesn't. Hopefully those who HAVE done this stuff will chime in.
"3/4''(19mm) drop for a 4WD:Any EE/EF spring(2WD Wgn.,HB,CRX or Sdn.)."
I am taking this to mean that someone has used stock struts from the wagon and simply installed a EE/EF spring and achieved a 3/4" drop simply because the spring is shorter? I was under the impression that it was ~2" shorter compared to the wagon (the rear ones) so the 3/4" drop is surprising to me. THe front springs are the same according to that thread.
"1.5''(35mm):hankish used DC(94-00) Shx/Springs.DC Shx might get you a extra 6mm.Just make sure you have the '89+ LCA.Rally racers run NO sway bar."
Is this for a 2wd wagon or 4wd wagon? If this "raises" the car 1.5" it seems that a simple performance spring set for a DC that would drop the car 1.5" would put the wagon roughly level with a nice gain in stiffness? Is this correct? This seems like the best settup for me and many others that do not want to lower our wagons but want a better handling/driving ride (especially with some weight).
I'm sure others are like me in that my wagon is a workaholic. Tows, drives through snowy mountain roads, gets loaded up often driven daily. The need for a performance oriented spring/shock combo that does not lower the vehicle - or lowers it no more than 1/2 - 3/4" (RT4WD wagons) - is very much a desire. I know others would agree with me on this one. Has anyone here aside from "hankish" used DC springs/shocks? As I understand it, the 89-00 civic/DC Teg's share the LCA's (though there are slight length differences that seem hard to find specifics on) which means the shocks would fit. I just don't have measurements for any of the generation differences and there is just this ONE thread saying that there has only been ONE person that supposedly did this.
Any input on the suspension from a DC => RT4WD Wagon? Or any other settup (not any EF coilovers either) that could/would theoretically work? Thanks for any/all input on this. I'd like to upgrade soon for all the reasons above without going lower. My wagon with 100lbs tongue weight and 2 guys in the back is sad. I have a feeling a little bit heavier teg' spring (either DA, DB, DC) would be a better way to go.
This seems to be the most comprehensive thread on what works/doesn't work. Though a bit confusing to me so I thought I would ask a specific question here about what works/doesn't. Hopefully those who HAVE done this stuff will chime in.
"3/4''(19mm) drop for a 4WD:Any EE/EF spring(2WD Wgn.,HB,CRX or Sdn.)."
I am taking this to mean that someone has used stock struts from the wagon and simply installed a EE/EF spring and achieved a 3/4" drop simply because the spring is shorter? I was under the impression that it was ~2" shorter compared to the wagon (the rear ones) so the 3/4" drop is surprising to me. THe front springs are the same according to that thread.
"1.5''(35mm):hankish used DC(94-00) Shx/Springs.DC Shx might get you a extra 6mm.Just make sure you have the '89+ LCA.Rally racers run NO sway bar."
Is this for a 2wd wagon or 4wd wagon? If this "raises" the car 1.5" it seems that a simple performance spring set for a DC that would drop the car 1.5" would put the wagon roughly level with a nice gain in stiffness? Is this correct? This seems like the best settup for me and many others that do not want to lower our wagons but want a better handling/driving ride (especially with some weight).
I'm sure others are like me in that my wagon is a workaholic. Tows, drives through snowy mountain roads, gets loaded up often driven daily. The need for a performance oriented spring/shock combo that does not lower the vehicle - or lowers it no more than 1/2 - 3/4" (RT4WD wagons) - is very much a desire. I know others would agree with me on this one. Has anyone here aside from "hankish" used DC springs/shocks? As I understand it, the 89-00 civic/DC Teg's share the LCA's (though there are slight length differences that seem hard to find specifics on) which means the shocks would fit. I just don't have measurements for any of the generation differences and there is just this ONE thread saying that there has only been ONE person that supposedly did this.
Any input on the suspension from a DC => RT4WD Wagon? Or any other settup (not any EF coilovers either) that could/would theoretically work? Thanks for any/all input on this. I'd like to upgrade soon for all the reasons above without going lower. My wagon with 100lbs tongue weight and 2 guys in the back is sad. I have a feeling a little bit heavier teg' spring (either DA, DB, DC) would be a better way to go.
Comments
I think I've read that DA springs will raise the wagon a bit?
i know you said no coilovers, but i am not talking full coilovers here.....with everyone wanting full coilovers the cost of coilover sleeves has gone down and there are a lot of used sets floating around. if you want to lower it less than an inch it shouldnt affect your stock strut travel enough to be a concern. pick up some EF coilover sleeves and lower it to your desired height and youre done, while still having the option for adjustment in the future. stiffer springs on the coilover sleeves will also give you more weight support in the back. its what i did, but i did upgrade my front struts tho.
and from what i remember reading, yes, DA springs raise the wagon.
Me 3.
Soon I'll have a set of crappy eBay coilovers available after I put some stock Si springs back on my gf's CRX, but as stiff as they are I don't want to use them on the wagon. I need my wagon to soak up the nasty bumps without breaking my spine into a million pieces.
I may go ahead and buy some DC2 stuff and try it out; of course I will have to add 89+ RLCA's in order to do so. Then I may as well add a sway bar to boot :shock: this could get nasty...
I had Koni adjustables on my previous Miata. I'd stiffen them up for an autocross and get a great improvement in handling. Then I'd forget to soften them again when driving home and the ride quality would be horrible.
I'd like to try to get some sooner than later and I will definitely make a tutorial do or tutorial don't out of this.
I have personally used a set of KYB GR-2 non-adjustable shocks and Neuspeed Sport (green) lowering springs made for a 1995 Civic, so in other words all EG parts on my mom's 1990 2WD wagon.
Tossing the parts on as-is netted a drop of maybe an inch, 1.5'' up front, almost stock ride height in the rear. Maybe a 1/4 of an inch lower in the rear. On the EG they came off of they dropped the car probably 2 inches. I ended up having to*gasp* cut the top coil off of the rear springs to bring the rear down enough to even notice visually that the car has been lowered. The ride is actually amazingly smooth, but the sligtest bit firmer during driving, but being progressive rate springs they actually stiffen up the harder you turn, so the car handles better than stock - no doubt.
Being that EG and DC (non ITR) shocks are 100% the same I can't see why DC shocks can't work on a wagon. Then again I'm definately speaking about the 2WD since I've done it, but the 4WD *should* work too IMO.
I think a nice upgrade for your wagon would be EG/DC shocks with a set of soft rate lowering springs for the DC rated at maybe 1.5'' drop. In actuality I think it'll raise the car a touch, but also have stiffer rates for a more positive ride. Be fuly prepared to cut the top coil off of the rear springs unless you want some hotrod rake action.
I guess as important of a deal using EG parts on a wagon is it'd be nice of me to actually take pics and post them, huh?
I have in my possesion:
90 Civic Si RLCA's w/sway bar brackets and sway bar
I have being shipped to me:
DC Integra shocks (w/front forks) and Neuspeed Sport springs (designed for 1.5" drop)
This, of course, will all go onto my 88' RT4wd. My goal, as stated earlier, is close to stock ride height with a little more "heavy duty" handling/capability. I have a feeling that these Neuspeed Sports will be just what I have wanted. I've much experience with the sport springs and I have always liked them on every vehicle I've ridden in with them. Hopefully the used OEM DC shocks that are coming will dampen ok; if not, I will replace with GR2's.
I'm also excited to see about this whole R sway thing and see how it "helps" out the car. Stay tuned! :shock:
I'll be watching your progress with interest!
I believe the DC rates are 212F/117R (lbs/in that is). Neuspeed Sport for the DC are also progressive rate @ 250F/185R.
That is a 17% front increase and a 58% rear increase. This rear increase, I believe, is where I should see my best gains because 1) I want to be able to load my trailer without sagging so much with only 100lbs tongue and 2) this will definitely help my cargo carrying capacity. Coupled with the rear sway I think I may have something here; at least this is how I've conjured it up in my head to be :shock:
Anyway, here is a little update of a few things I did this A.M.
Here are the LCA's in all their glory; stock, dirty and quite "tweaked" hehe
Cleaned up the end links and had to make my own bushing for one, not so hard if you have a million misc. pieces of mierda laying around in your garage like me.
Presto! New bushing!
And now, once they were cleaned, we can "modify" the existing bushings as it is much cheaper ($5 tube of caulk) and less time consuming to do this than buy new ones; plus they come out a hair stiffer like this anyway which I'd prefer.
Just make sure they are as straight as possible BEFORE you use the urethane
You don't want to urethane it when it looks like this (from years of use):
Moving right along...
Now I am awaiting my teg' junk to get here. So I can start with that stuff. I think once I have it up in the air I may leave it up the whole weekend and finish off the tube of urethane on a few more rear bushings. Other than that, stay tuned!
Disclaimer: I have NO idea what the actual stock springs rates are, this is what I found searching for 5 minutes. Quite frankly its not too important to me to know; however if any of you DO in fact know I am wrong than please chime in and correct me cause the right info would certainly add to this thread.
Anyhow; as for ride height it looks like my wagon lost about 1" exactly. My front height is 13.25" which may actually me more like 1.25" drop for me since I think (bad memory at my young age) I was about 14.5" before. I am not too sure how I will like this. I've yet to do the rear (and try to height match it, I may have to cut a coil though) to see what its really like and also put some miles on it. I don't know that I would mind it being this low so long as I don't get as much slosh with the suspension like I did with it stock (all original suspension for me; stamped 11/87 LOL, probaby older than some of you!).
Onto the comparison pics for now, I will of course keep this thread updated in the future.
Precisely 1" taller out of the car.
The DC/EG forks are exactly the same height as the EF/EE ones (8") but of course the cup in the EG/DC forks has a larger diameter to accompany the larger shock body. The "curve" or front leg of the fork is a bit beefier and bows out a tiny more. No clearance issues when installed but I'd be willing to get that it may be a tad heavier. The tophats are identical and only required a slight "rotation". My pic of them installed went bunk; I took it to show how the brake line brackets also match up 100%.
13.25" F/14.6" R
Uber dirty, I know... thats just how I roll. Found a little bubble in my tire so thats the grease mark in case anyone was wondering. I will get to the rear this weekend and finish her up. I have a distinct feeling I will be upgrading shocks too; likely GR-2's. I also think that I may end up gaining a tad bit of height back when I do upgrade shocks. If I buy new ones I will be into this whole suspension setup (DC2 Nuespeeds, GR-2s, 90 si RLCA and sway bar) for about $330. Most of that is because I got a stupid deal on the DC2 stuff. I think when I do this upgrade I will also do some DA knuckles/brakes and possibly SS brake lines at the same time. Actually, I think I will... that sounds good
Stay tuned, hope you all enjoy!
EDIT: I just looked at the pics in full size for the first time and I think I might like the height, muhaha. Perhaps the old Honda tuner in me is coming out. Can anyone photshop some 15" wheels on this trick whip for me? Thanks fellas!
Looks like the local parking warden has marked you twice.
Can't wait to see the finished product, as well as get your thoughts on how it handles and rides!
Anyway, I finished up the rear today. I didn't even attempt the sway yet as I am planning on waiting until I do my exhaust since it will be out and I will be a welding fool that day.
The parts!
Really only about 0.25" difference with the rears.
The rear came down about .75" putting me a hair over 14" for rear ride height. That means my front is about .5" lower which actually is just dandy with me.
I guess I will be scrubbing the flaps from now on :shock:
Pics do the talking mostly. So far the ride is much more controlled; probably similar to what the car felt like new. My stock dampers were from 11/87, leaking and old. These springs ride like wonderfully so far; not even close to being too stiff. With a GR-2 or a bit more shock than the stock DC ones I bet this ride would stiffen up a hair and improve dramatically.
If I want to raise the front up another 0.5" that wouldn't be a problem with some homemade spacers between the tophat and the body mount. I will see how I like it with some miles put on it; so far I've only driven it about 10 miles. So far its a vast improvement over stock. Thanks for looking.
DC2 suspension a success! Keep in mind these are lowering springs; if one went with stock Integra springs I bet the ride height would be VERY close to stock (for a 4wd). Since I used the 89+ RLCA I think that ended up dropping me about 0.5" as the 88's are definitely shaped a bit "different"; its to bad the 89+ aren't as light as the 88's.
For you folks wondering, this means that EG stuff will work just the same. IIRC B18C installed some 4dr Civic suspension on a EE Wagon and had similar results (though a coil or two was cut for the rear I believe).
So stock DC/EG shocks and springs should fit a wagon, with possibly some modification on EG rear springs. Actually, if you wanted the back of your car to drop to the level of the front, you'd be cutting a coil or so yourself. I love how Hondas are like Legos and you can mix and match so many pieces. :twisted:
There's a HUGE aftermarket for EG Civics and Integras. Looks like all those parts are available to us, too.
Matter of fact; after driving it for an extra 100 miles since yesterday the rear has basically come down to almost match the front. The whole car is basically level now and the look is definitely growing on me. Though I know when I'm loaded up and off road I will be scraping a few things more than I'd like; I absolutely love how the car feels now.
Another bonus is that I just picked up some DA knuckles/brakes at the junkyard today. I walked right by that wagon I was telling you about and its still 100% intact just waiting to be pounced upon. Stay tuned for the sway bar install!
We just got buried in yet ANOTHER snowstorm, so I haven't had a chance to look at my trans yet. I'll let you know if I'm interested in taking you up on that offer.
Keeping in mind that he replaced the rear lower control arms, yeah.
That looks fantastic! My ride feels almost like there are no shocks at all; I get bad bumps and squeaks. If I could get cheap replacement parts that ride more smoothly, I'd be willing to accept a small drop.
It is posted various places that DC springs should raise a wagon by 1.5" (doesn't say 2WD or 4WD) but in this thread noahrexion is using DC shocks and 1.5" lowering springs to achieve a 1" drop on an RT. Taken at face value he should be at stock height but he isn't. What I am thinking and looking to confirm is that DC shocks and springs will raise a 2wd wagon 1.5" but a RT4WD wagon is already 3/4" to 1" taller stock so as a result putting a DC suspension on an RT4WD should raise the car about a 1/2" all around.
So in summary does this seem right?
DC on 2WD = 1.5" Lift
DC on 4WD = 0.5" Lift
If that is all correct I'll start looking for a DC suspension setup and I think it might be quite useful to update the suspension thread to make it clear that the notes about lifting are based on 2WD stock heights.
I've been searching for an hour on this forum and the old forum for hankish or hankishwgn and haven't found anything new. Hankish only seems to have about 25 posts on this forum none of them a build thread or anything that might have some sort of details like this in it. I couldn't find Hankish at all on the old forum.
I found this quote from him hid in the middle of a thread
But that leaves met at the same point I was before... It raises a CRX 1.5" but how does that relate to a 4WD wagon? I think I'm on the right track just was hoping someone could confirm my thoughts for me.
1. I have stock shocks from 5gen civic (eg3 EUDM) and stock shocks from 4gen civic. Will my wagon go down with these setup or not, and if will, howmuch it will go down?
2. I can not release rear shock from wagon. The bushing from lower arm is going out from arm with screw, but the screw wont to go out of shock
I forgot to mention. I have 1992 Civic Shuttle RT4WD
hondaholic the bushing issue I'm pretty sure has been discussed here before. You're going to have to cut the bolt on either side of the arm so you can pull the shock out, (a hacksaw or cutoff wheel can work for this). Then you'll have to get the busing out of the arm and replace it with a new one.