Took... ebay coilovers off a friends 93 Accord wagon ... he hated the ride so bad. He wanted to put the stock springs back on and cut them. I took off 2 coils in back and 2.5 in front and the difference in how the car rode was night and day. He got rid of the bouncy/choppyness and it just rode overall better... like stock. Is it cause the cheapy ebay coilover springs are so short?
I've not been a fan of coilovers for reasons you mentioned.There are coilovers that ride well,but the reason they don't is the coil spring rates are MOST often Too high(STIFF) .
Well ...I 'm confused about the springs getting stiffer when cut. I don't understand that. Not being a smartass ... I seriously cant comprehend that. I swear all the cars Ive cut springs on rode identical to stock... Never seemed to be 'stiffer'.
You've been cutting springs correctly.Cut springs are just as competitive racing wise.You don't feel the additional stiffness 'cuz it's in the dead coils.It does translate into the active coils,but not as much.Under normal ride conditions you're feeling the active coils.The formula for progressive springs is more complex than the above equation(for linear springs).
dont feel bad, I work with this stuff all day and I have a hard time wrapping my head around it as well.
As Jaker pointed out, there IS an increase in spring rate when a coil is cut off. Maybe he can explain it better (because I am sure i cant as I’m still on shakey ground with it myself) but it has to do with the distribution of weight. Basically each coil, if rated the same is doing less work supporting the car if there are more coils. Again, this is my understanding, maybe jaker can explain it better? But in my experience, the outcome of the coil cutting is so little I have never bothered to even look at the differences (again, other than lowering). You’d still be way better off getting a "performance" spring setup from a company like Eibach.
As far as the "dead coils" go, again, this is a really bad name for what is actually a built in helper spring. Cutting these out, although this Decreases the height, you probably wouldn’t feel any real change, as these coils are generally at full block under any load. If you are cutting the rest of the spring, this would translate into greater increases in spring "rate" but may be tricky to then get the spring to seat properly. Not to mention knowing what you are increasing the rate to.
Properly built coilovers (not sleeve over’s or cheap crap) will perform just a good (in some cases MUCH better) that a spring and shock replacement. You just have to get the right stuff, and unfortunately, that usually costs money. The dampers are really key. Springs are springs, and there are very few really crappy spring company’s out there. What you want is a company that is building specific solutions with springs and dampers working together correctly. The problem is if you toss a blind spring rate at a damper and expect it to do its job, not to mention with shorter travel, you run into problems. If you get a Spring and shock kit or you get it as a coilover, as long as the company has done there R&D on yor specific application, and has a good damper setup you should get something that works perfect. Look to companies that have the lap times and the engineering to prove it. Keep in mind some coilovers (or performance springs) are just WAY over sprung, and give you a crappy ride regardless. Too much spring, and riding like a go cart dosent always translate into good lap times! Also, rmeber to tell that company what your plans for the car are. They should be able to give you diffrent products ranging from street to track, and a good all round compromise.
My 2 cents. I look to Jaker to try and explaine the spring thing casue my explaination is pretty vauge I know, and may not be correct. I had this discussion with a german Suspension engineer while drinking, and was trying to get my head around it then so take it for what its worth.
and then the energy that must travel through it
the longer it holds energy, the mass of things
will retain that energy to bounce within that mass
(soft)
compare:
same impact-surface, hammer and a two nails
hammer long nail impact surface result
hammer short nail impact surface result
which nail will likely go through the surface before it bends ?
ergo: a spring also absorbs energy, the way it releases energy,
you can call that stiffness
note: you have to work with the periodic table at a certain level
Thanks Eagle Beagle and 91civicZC for trying to explain, but its just not clicking. I must be simple, lol.
and DMORTY, maybe you could just use rt4wd springs and fwd shocks?? Just a thought. Its been a while, but I compared the two struts together (RT vs sedan struts) and if I remember correctly, the only difference was how high the spring pearch was. The RT pearchs were 1.5-2" lower than the regular fwd struts and I think the springs were taller by about the same.
i did the top hat mod for my 89 rtawd wagon. my car is slammed!!! and rides great.
Hey revtech, can you give me the lengths you added for front and back. I don't want to do this blindly seeing how you said your car rides great as low as it is I wanna be that low but don't want to sacrifice ride.
i did the top hat mod for my 89 rtawd wagon. my car is slammed!!! and rides great.
Hey revtech, can you give me the lengths you added for front and back. I don't want to do this blindly seeing how you said your car rides great as low as it is I wanna be that low but don't want to sacrifice ride.
i did the top hat mod for my 89 rtawd wagon. my car is slammed!!! and rides great.
Hey revtech, can you give me the lengths you added for front and back. I don't want to do this blindly seeing how you said your car rides great as low as it is I wanna be that low but don't want to sacrifice ride.
i did the top hat mod for my 89 rtawd wagon. my car is slammed!!! and rides great.
Hey revtech, can you give me the lengths you added for front and back. I don't want to do this blindly seeing how you said your car rides great as low as it is I wanna be that low but don't want to sacrifice ride.
1.5 in fronts and 2.0 in the rear
Nice! What size tube did you use? And where can I get some?
i did the top hat mod for my 89 rtawd wagon. my car is slammed!!! and rides great.
Hey revtech, can you give me the lengths you added for front and back. I don't want to do this blindly seeing how you said your car rides great as low as it is I wanna be that low but don't want to sacrifice ride.
1.5 in fronts and 2.0 in the rear
Nice! What size tube did you use? And where can I get some?
tube size is 1.5 id , i got it from pacific metal but you can buy it at any metal shop.
I used 1 7/8" exhaust tubing. It's the same thickness as the rest of the tophat. The OD. is small enough that you can run welds on the outside of the tophat and not have interference with the body when putting them in. The ID is just big enough to use all the stock rubber pieces and washers (you'll just need to debur the inside of the tophat after cutting/ welding)
I did 1 1/4" in the front and 2" in the rear. And yes... it rides great. Not bouncy at all.
Comments
The objective is to not bottom the shx.Just extend it the same amount you're lowering.I'd recommend 1''(25mm) ,but probably no more than 2''(50mm).
I've not been a fan of coilovers for reasons you mentioned.There are coilovers that ride well,but the reason they don't is the coil spring rates are MOST often Too high(STIFF) .
You've been cutting springs correctly.Cut springs are just as competitive racing wise.You don't feel the additional stiffness 'cuz it's in the dead coils.It does translate into the active coils,but not as much.Under normal ride conditions you're feeling the active coils.The formula for progressive springs is more complex than the above equation(for linear springs).
dont feel bad, I work with this stuff all day and I have a hard time wrapping my head around it as well.
As Jaker pointed out, there IS an increase in spring rate when a coil is cut off. Maybe he can explain it better (because I am sure i cant as I’m still on shakey ground with it myself) but it has to do with the distribution of weight. Basically each coil, if rated the same is doing less work supporting the car if there are more coils. Again, this is my understanding, maybe jaker can explain it better? But in my experience, the outcome of the coil cutting is so little I have never bothered to even look at the differences (again, other than lowering). You’d still be way better off getting a "performance" spring setup from a company like Eibach.
As far as the "dead coils" go, again, this is a really bad name for what is actually a built in helper spring. Cutting these out, although this Decreases the height, you probably wouldn’t feel any real change, as these coils are generally at full block under any load. If you are cutting the rest of the spring, this would translate into greater increases in spring "rate" but may be tricky to then get the spring to seat properly. Not to mention knowing what you are increasing the rate to.
Properly built coilovers (not sleeve over’s or cheap crap) will perform just a good (in some cases MUCH better) that a spring and shock replacement. You just have to get the right stuff, and unfortunately, that usually costs money. The dampers are really key. Springs are springs, and there are very few really crappy spring company’s out there. What you want is a company that is building specific solutions with springs and dampers working together correctly. The problem is if you toss a blind spring rate at a damper and expect it to do its job, not to mention with shorter travel, you run into problems. If you get a Spring and shock kit or you get it as a coilover, as long as the company has done there R&D on yor specific application, and has a good damper setup you should get something that works perfect. Look to companies that have the lap times and the engineering to prove it. Keep in mind some coilovers (or performance springs) are just WAY over sprung, and give you a crappy ride regardless. Too much spring, and riding like a go cart dosent always translate into good lap times! Also, rmeber to tell that company what your plans for the car are. They should be able to give you diffrent products ranging from street to track, and a good all round compromise.
My 2 cents. I look to Jaker to try and explaine the spring thing casue my explaination is pretty vauge I know, and may not be correct. I had this discussion with a german Suspension engineer while drinking, and was trying to get my head around it then so take it for what its worth.
and then the energy that must travel through it
the longer it holds energy, the mass of things
will retain that energy to bounce within that mass
(soft)
compare:
same impact-surface, hammer and a two nails
hammer long nail impact surface result
hammer short nail impact surface result
which nail will likely go through the surface before it bends ?
ergo: a spring also absorbs energy, the way it releases energy,
you can call that stiffness
note: you have to work with the periodic table at a certain level
I might just need bigger wheels...
and DMORTY, maybe you could just use rt4wd springs and fwd shocks?? Just a thought. Its been a while, but I compared the two struts together (RT vs sedan struts) and if I remember correctly, the only difference was how high the spring pearch was. The RT pearchs were 1.5-2" lower than the regular fwd struts and I think the springs were taller by about the same.
Hey revtech, can you give me the lengths you added for front and back. I don't want to do this blindly seeing how you said your car rides great as low as it is
The little pic of the car looks great dood. Lets see some bigger pix in the members ride area stat!
thank you sir
Nice! What size tube did you use? And where can I get some?
I did 1 1/4" in the front and 2" in the rear. And yes... it rides great. Not bouncy at all.
Hey pm me a price on a set of these 2 inch raise. I need these asap. My wagon rides like shit with the ride height Im runnin. Thanks.