top hat mod
89wago
Band Wagon
A)so ive been doing some reading on here and saw that the top hat mod was a big hit.but then i also saw that i believe it was jaker(actually oilspot) who had the idea of just making a spacer on top that to hav the same effect. my first question was how would said spacer be made would it be a washer then a piece of pipe then a washer? and my second question would this mod help the ride of a slightly cut coil or a set of ebay coilovers? thnks
B)now i saw a mod called the fork mod where you simple cut off the brake like bracket and move the fork up on the strut. is this mod a good idea, because to my understanding it would not get rid of any of the strut travel wat so ever
B)now i saw a mod called the fork mod where you simple cut off the brake like bracket and move the fork up on the strut. is this mod a good idea, because to my understanding it would not get rid of any of the strut travel wat so ever
Comments
NOTE:I think oilspot was confused or misread the later spacer mod.
thnks
Cutting the springs is the biggest mistake that you will ever make. Unless you're wanting to graft a Del Sol front end on your wagon or something.
Cut springs are a complete failure, they ride terrible
How the hell could that be? They are the same spring wether they are cut or not. As long as you have enough travel with your struts they will ride identicle as stock springs but without as much travel.
I have been cutting Honda springs for well over 10 years and have yet to get in a cut spring Honda that I lowered and have it ride like shit. As long as you cut the bumpstops accordingly and cut the correct end of the spring, the car will ride like stock other than the amount of travel you have.
As soon as I pulled the tophats apart, and saw how the bushings, sleeve, etc all worked with each other, I ended up not using them. I didn't think that using what would end up being a solid strut mount, would be a very good idea.
The spacer would also have needed to been welded to the original tophat.
= don't waste your time with trying to use a spacer!
knock out the studs, cut the tophat with a sawzall, weld in a chunk of 1 7/8" exhaust tubing, paint, put the studs back in, and your done.
I did the job, start to finish in about 4 hours. It only took me that long because I'm a stay at home dad. I've got my 5 year old son that hangs with me while I'm doing all this stuff. So that means lunch breaks, breaks to help him with stuff, etc.
If I were do make a set, including the time of taking them on and off the car, without any distractions, I'd say it would be a 2 hour job.... that easy!
As far as spring rates changing when cutting. Yes it defanantly does. If you put a full length spring on the floor and stand on it, you can get it to spring under you. Now take one of the chunks you cut out, it will be like standing on a brick. There's tons of tech writeups on how springrates change with length etc. Not saying any of this in disrespect to you shenrie. I used to think the same thing. I've got a friend that's a dirtbike suspension expert (that not talking him up either, he's a BMF). He spent a little time explaning it to me. Made my head spin. Also made me realize that there's a reason there's not many suspension tech guru's out there.
Progresive spring rates will change when cut, but Linear springs will not. Every Honda I have ever cut the springs on I guess was Linear. Ive never had a shitty riding cut spring Honda.
Im definalty not the know it all of the Honda world, but hearing all the bs about cut springs erks me for some reason. I guess cut springs get such a bad rap cause usually know nothing dipshits try it without researching it whatsoever and then when it fails, they post up on random forums on how bad it rode etc...
I raced a 91 hatch with blown struts and cut springs at our autox's here for a season and had no problems whoopin ass with it at all, plus the old beater rode like a champ. Ended up being about a 3-3.5" drop. I did however cut the correct side of the spring and modify the bump stops.
and with suspension "the proofs in the puddin". The suspension techs have all kinds of charts, calculations, etc. But a good suspension person will even admit that it's kinda a black art. They run the calculations, try it in the real world, and make adjustments.
If you did it, and it works, that beats what everybody tried to tell you hands down.
ie. I was told on other forums that my car would ride like shit, and blow out the stock struts if I put lowering springs on stock struts. That's not the case. My car actually rides better than stock (other than slamming the undercarrage into the ground from time to time).
Now I'm hearing people say that they have the high dollar springs, and struts, and that the car rides like shit.
Makes me think that 95% of people giving advice are just regurgitating something they heard somebody else say.
I have been really lucky for the msot part. Some cars I cut cos I plan on spending no cash on them and they end up riding great. Go figure.
Others I have cut just to dial in ride height for when I got real suspension, and most rode just as good before as after I spent a bunch of money on parts....however the handeling from real suspension wins hands down as long as its sorted right.
Im planning on doing some tophat work. Still compiling info though. I hear good things from many who have tried. There is such a thing as too much suspension though. Sounds funny, but its true.
http://www.foxraceco.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=367
Suspension tuning isn’t necessarily black magic, there is just a lot of BS behind it all. Most people who sell you suspension, or work in the suspension industry cant tell you all of it, and there are WAY to many “freelance” engineers who will tell you they know what they are doing, and they probably don’t. However, if what you do works for you, good on you, keep doing it. However, also realize that you may be able to get better lap times by doing it right, and modifying your driving a little. Most people will drive around issues rather than trying to tune them out.
Anyway, the problem with cutting springs:
Cutting coils doesn’t “change” spring rate, no matter what. But in the case of a progressive spring, it may be that you have removed a Section of the spring that is fairly key. Because a true progressive will have a different “rate” for each point of compression, what you are removing may lead to wheel hop under hard acceleration, or uneven balance between the front and rear, to say nothing of the travel issues you can create. Basically you have just tossed out any engineering that went into the spring in the first place.
However, MOST “progressive” springs now are actually just a linear spring with a helper spring attached to it. What you probably have been doing is cutting what most people think of and refer to as “dead” coils. There really is no such thing as a dead coil. What these are is usually an integrated helper that provides the correct preload on the spring. This means that if you suspension gets to full droop, you could have some serious issues in the spring may not seat correctly on the way down, or just “fall out” of the pocket.
Again, if it works for you, go for it. Suspension tuning is a pretty in-depth thing. Spring rates are not the be all and end all. Alignments, tires, damper rates ect all come into play. While cutting springs will offer a lowered center of gravity, it wont do much for you as far as getting the tire to stick more than it was already, as you are using the same spring rate, you’ve just changed the roll center.
Regardless, again, if it works for you, keep doing it. I am one of those “I disagree with cutting springs” people, but whatever gets the lap times for you is what’s best!
I want my wagon to sit fairly high. I am using KW V1s on my wagon, but to get it to sit high, I am running out rebound travel, and the springs have way to much preload with very little compression travel. The system was meant for lowering the car, not sitting at stock height, so I don’t blame it. However, I figured if I did the top hat mod in reverse, I could get the rebound AND compression travel I wanted, sit as high as I want (only a little under stock) and still get the advantage of a great Damper/spring coilover setup for handling.
Any rally minded folk already try this? I was thinking of only adding .5 -1 inch, but I am not sure of the safety aspect of it…..
Nice post and well defined explanations, thanks man. Ive had all that stuff explained to me, and I comprehend, but I ahve a hard time typing it out so others can understand. Props for being able to word it for everyone to understand.
I usually cut the top of the spring. The "dead coils" are at the bottom and are usually tapered, so if you cut the bottom youll have issues with keeping the spring seated.
I would never recommend cut springs over real suspension mods if youve got the cash, nor would I rely on it being competitive at the races, even though I have (more luck I suppose), Ive just never understood all the negative stuff I see written about doing it when Ive had nothing but good luck. I cant be the only one thats had good luck with cutting springs. Especially with all the broke ass honda owners in the world, lol.
Back on topic.... Is there a magical amount to extend the tophats? Would it be beneficial to go longer with the wagons as thiers more room between the hood and strut towers than the hatch or sedan?
As for the top hat, I've wondered this to. From looking at some of the pics Ive see on Honda-0tech, it really looks like alot. One pics looked almost like 2 inches. Seems like a ton to me. If I was going to go the other way, 1 inch at most, but not sure how much you can get way with before saftey becomes an issue, and or what changes would need to be made to the spring.
How are you cutting them? With a torch? With a grinder?
Why would you lower your car if it's not for better handling?
Just go out side & l :shock: k at your front shx.You'll see how much.
I use a grinder with a small cutoff wheeel. Heating them up does wierd things. Wont do that again and havent done it since the 80's, lol.
I lower cars for looks as well. I allready have a car for autox, so when I get new daily drivers I usually lower with cutting springs. Ive lowered a lot of friends cars this way too cause they want a lowered car but dont want to spend any money. Everyone I have cut springs for has been very happy with the end result. Prolly pushing 50+ cars lowered like that and I think the only person who want happy was Billboard, but thats cause he upper arms were slapping, not cause of the ride.
The ground control parts are really nice, but making them is even nicer for those of us with zero money in thier wallets.
he will help the handling to a point, becouse he has lowered the roll center. however, becouse the rate hasent increased, he is not helping the tire stick more than it did intially. Not increasing the spring rate also causes travel problems and more.
While I dont agree with it, if done without messing up the preload or making the car a hazard, it would increase the handling of the car, to a point.
rate = ( wireDia^4 * 1470000 ) / ( coilDia^3 * numCoils )
I have had engineers explaine it to me before, and if i understand correctly (I dont think Im smart enough) it has to do without the amunt of same rated coils supporting the load basicaly. From what I understand, Porsche takes advantage of this in some of there systems, which is pretty cool.
In the end, just becouse it has always seemed like such a small amount, I have never really taken it in to consideration, but yes you are right, cutting a coil can increae the overall spring rate. It just dosent seem like enough to worry about. I guess could be wrong though?
We actually took some ebay coilovers off a friends 93 Accord wagon this past weekend cause he hated the ride so bad. He wanted to put the stock springs back on and cut them. I took off 2 coils in back and 2.5 in front and the difference in how the car rode was night and day. He got rid of the bouncy/choppyness and it just rode overall better. Other than not as much travel, the car rides like stock. Is it cause the cheapy ebay coilover springs are so short?