+++SiWagon & clsmooth Suspension Upgrades(Updated 3-23-11)
SiWagon
Council Member
SiWagon Notes: clsmooth wrote a very informative EE Wagon suspension article.Unfortunately not well written.I totally rewrote,reorganized,edited,updated & added more to it.So, what I thought was to be a one hour rewrite turned into 3 week on & off project.He was a COOL member @ the OG site.He had a Wgn w/4 Si seats in it.He left when he blew up his ZC(I think) engine.Hopefully he has almost or has graduted.If you want to read the original article in it's entirety start @ this link: http://www.hondacivicwagon.com/board/vi ... php?t=1311 .It's the first link.I recommend going down about 11 postings(to doitdub's posting(one w/the doggie avatar)). clsmooth's entire article is there.The prob with going to the old site is you may get spam ambushed.I hope you peeps enjoy reading my updated version.
Last Update:3/23/11.This will be updated from time 2 time(Check RED hi-lites for lastest update).
EE Wagon Suspension Upgrades
What ever drop you want:EF & DA coil-over's fit on the Wagon.
2-3''(50-75mm) drop:
A)'89-'91 Wgn:Use '89-'91 Civic(HB,CRX or Sdn NOT Wgn)shocks & lowering springs. Note:CRX HF might be too soft.
'88-'91 Wgn:The prob w/this option is how to lower the front since NO one has tried this yet.2-3''(50-75mm) drop.Use Civic(EF) OEM rear springs on a Wgn. rear shocks. Note: rear Wagon shock's spring perch are 2'' lower & Wgn. springs 2-2.75"(50-69mm)taller.
C)For '88 Wagon(EE) Rear :Use '88 Civic(HB,CRX or Sdn NOT Wgn) Rear shocks or you can swap in '89-'91 Civic LCAs or use DC('96-01 ITR) rear shocks. IMPORTANT :arrow: Replace your Rear lower shock bolts and Upper Outer Control Arm bolts with the bolts out of the '92+ Civic/Integra Upper Outer Control Arm(10x68mm).These bolts have a ribbed shank instead of a smooth shank to prevent bolts from rusting to the outer sleeve especially in snow country.
Also grab the lower '88 rear shock nuts from any '88 Civic at the junkyard.It's EXTRA heavy duty with a wider flange & rare too.
Camber Correction:Use a stack of 2-3 washers under the Wgn's UCA bolts.Replace w/longer 1986-89 Accord Front Radius arm bolt.If more washers are needed ,then get longer bolts too.These can be gotten off various Hondas.
3/4''(19mm) drop for a 4WD:Use 2WD springs.Any EE/EF shock/spring combo(HB,CRX or Sdn.).
Stiffer Springs on Wagon Shocks(stock height or slightly higher) :
SiWagon Note: My interpretation of clsmooth's writing(see quote below)he was using Wgn. shocks ,but I'm not sure.You could mount the DA springs on the Wgn. Shx,then decide if coils need to be cut.
The DA front springs are the same dimensions as EF ones (height, diameter, etc.).Cutting 2 - 3 dead coils off the top of the taller DA rear springs levels out the Wagon very cleanly. Some might say these springs make the ride too stiff, but I'll personally trade that off any day over having it bottom out.
Lifting the Wagon:
3/4''(19mm) Lift:Use the 4WD springs on the 2WD.
3/4''-1''(19-25mm):red civic standard used 2000 Civic Si Springs.
1.5''(35mm):hankish used DC(94-00) Shx/Springs.DC Shx might get you a extra 6mm.Just make sure you have the '89+ LCA.Rally racers run NO sway bar.
1''(25mm)+:Coilovers cranked up to desired lift.
Tophats:
Tophats maybe needed if you plan to lower your Wgn more than 1.5''(38mm) to save the shocks.It allows more shock travel cushion.There are services out there that will mod your OEM tophats.I've seen aftermarket tophats ,but they look like they were meant for coilovers.If you plan to mod your own read the following:
+++SiWagon FYI: Tophat WARNINGS & Specs
Sway Bars
THe top Racing Civic CRXs & HBs run NO front sway bar and add a rear bar.Our Wagons have more OVERSTEER than the Civic HB or CRX due to the added rear weight bias.That's why I haven't installed a DA rear bar that I 've got sitting in my garage.For the street the Wgn. OEM set-up works quite well.
Front Sway bar:
Any EF (aftermarket too)front sway bar fit.The Wgn.floor is shaped a bit different, so is incredibly tricky snaking the sway bar through, especially w/o a hoist. It's a straight sway bar R&R except you may have to remove the cat & drop the shift linkage.A lot of Autoxer's & road racer use NO front sway bar at all.OEM Sizes:
NO BAR Base HB
17.2mm(hollow) CRX HF
18 mm CRX Si(&DX),HB
19 mm Wagon & Sdn.
Aftermarket:
22.5mm(7/8'')
25.4mm (1'')
Rear Sway bar makes the Wgn. handle DRASTICALLY better!It feels like you put in the most expensive high-end coil-over's & worth every minute of effort !
You'll need a pair of EF Si/DA rear LCA( with threaded hole to mount the end-link) & a rear sway bar from 1 of these:
13mm EF HB Si
15mm EF CRX Si
14.7mm DA coupe
15.9mm DA sedan
19mm? OEM Integra Type R .The ITR(19mm?)rear bar is maybe the most extreme you can go .
The OEM bar is''soft'' enough to keep the car under control. mini wrote a good Rear bar DIY
A aftermarket rear bar is too stiff & there's been stories of rear fish-tailing like Drifters.
Upper Control Arm: Replace your Upper Outer Control Arm bolts with the bolts out of the '92+ Civic/Integra Upper Outer Control Arm(10x68mm).These bolts have a ribbed shank instead of a smooth shank to prevent bolts from rusting to the outer sleeve.
Upper Strut Bars:
EF front strut bars fit. The strut bars make a noticeable differences in cars that have been in accidents. I've talked to EF owner's that cornered so hard that the lack of a front strut bar caused their windshield to crack!
EF rear strut bars are too long.Wgn.strut bolt to bolt is 1004mm vs 1043mm(CRX)
Bushings:You can pretty much use any aftermarket EF bushing(s).
Front Braces:
A front lower brace is good cause it's like adding frame. These braces are kinda ''H'',shaped and mount to various points under the car, yet still clear things(e.g. oil pan etc.).None were made for the EF.Watch the ground clearance.I've seen people modifying EG one's to fit their EF's.
Rear Lower Tie Bars:
NOT needed.The Wagon's subframe that holds the diff(acts like a tie bar) is so massive that it dwarfs any of the aftermarket rear lower tie bar. EF rear lower tie bar ''looks'' like it'll mount on,but won't because the curved OEM subframe & exhaust pipes are in the way.
Last Update:3/23/11.This will be updated from time 2 time(Check RED hi-lites for lastest update).
EE Wagon Suspension Upgrades
-
LCA = lower control arm
UCA = upper control arm
DA = 90-93 integra
DC = 94+ integra
EE=88-91/96wgn.
EF = 88-91 civic
EG = 92-95 civic
What ever drop you want:EF & DA coil-over's fit on the Wagon.
2-3''(50-75mm) drop:
A)'89-'91 Wgn:Use '89-'91 Civic(HB,CRX or Sdn NOT Wgn)shocks & lowering springs. Note:CRX HF might be too soft.
'88-'91 Wgn:The prob w/this option is how to lower the front since NO one has tried this yet.2-3''(50-75mm) drop.Use Civic(EF) OEM rear springs on a Wgn. rear shocks. Note: rear Wagon shock's spring perch are 2'' lower & Wgn. springs 2-2.75"(50-69mm)taller.C)For '88 Wagon(EE) Rear :Use '88 Civic(HB,CRX or Sdn NOT Wgn) Rear shocks or you can swap in '89-'91 Civic LCAs or use DC('96-01 ITR) rear shocks. IMPORTANT :arrow: Replace your Rear lower shock bolts and Upper Outer Control Arm bolts with the bolts out of the '92+ Civic/Integra Upper Outer Control Arm(10x68mm).These bolts have a ribbed shank instead of a smooth shank to prevent bolts from rusting to the outer sleeve especially in snow country.
Also grab the lower '88 rear shock nuts from any '88 Civic at the junkyard.It's EXTRA heavy duty with a wider flange & rare too.
Camber Correction:Use a stack of 2-3 washers under the Wgn's UCA bolts.Replace w/longer 1986-89 Accord Front Radius arm bolt.If more washers are needed ,then get longer bolts too.These can be gotten off various Hondas.
3/4''(19mm) drop for a 4WD:Use 2WD springs.Any EE/EF shock/spring combo(HB,CRX or Sdn.).
Stiffer Springs on Wagon Shocks(stock height or slightly higher) :
SiWagon Note: My interpretation of clsmooth's writing(see quote below)he was using Wgn. shocks ,but I'm not sure.You could mount the DA springs on the Wgn. Shx,then decide if coils need to be cut.
The DA front springs are the same dimensions as EF ones (height, diameter, etc.).Cutting 2 - 3 dead coils off the top of the taller DA rear springs levels out the Wagon very cleanly. Some might say these springs make the ride too stiff, but I'll personally trade that off any day over having it bottom out.
clsmooth wrote:Springs: DA recommended.
Once again, to set everything straight in your mind, the front springs are the same (in height), however the rear are a little different. DA springs, if you were to measure them, have the same dimensions as EF ones (height, diameter, etc.). So why use them over EF springs? Because manufactures make EF springs with the EF CRX and HB in mind, a car lighter then a Wagon, by about 200 – 300 lbs. Just carry 2 passengers in you car, and you’ll notice the difference in the way your car acts. Because of this, EF springs aren’t designed for the weight and length of a Wagon. As a result the car bottoms out on the shocks easier, especially in the front, we’ve noticed. DA springs are designed for a car that’s 200 – 300 lbs HEAVIER then a Wagon. Actually, I think that number is actually closer to the 400 lbs mark. So when DA springs are in a Wagon, they must think the car is as light as a feather in comparison to what they were designed for.
The one thing with these springs however, relates back to the fact of the taller shocks in the rear of a DA. Taller shocks require taller springs. So putting DA springs straight into a Wagon will leave the rear sitting high, almost as if you didn’t even lower it at all. I’m sure there’s some of us here that have experienced this before! So cutting 2 – 3 dead coils off the top of the rear springs levels out the Wagon very cleanly. Some might say these springs make the right too stiff, but I’ll personally trade that off any day over having things bottom out over the littlest cracks in the road.
There is however, one brand of spring, made by a company called AERO in Japan, that bolts into a Wagon using Wagon shocks. However they’re very pricey, Y41000, and then there’s shipping on top of that. And your still stuck with OEM shocks anyway.
Lifting the Wagon:
3/4''(19mm) Lift:Use the 4WD springs on the 2WD.
3/4''-1''(19-25mm):red civic standard used 2000 Civic Si Springs.
1.5''(35mm):hankish used DC(94-00) Shx/Springs.DC Shx might get you a extra 6mm.Just make sure you have the '89+ LCA.Rally racers run NO sway bar.
1''(25mm)+:Coilovers cranked up to desired lift.
Tophats:
Tophats maybe needed if you plan to lower your Wgn more than 1.5''(38mm) to save the shocks.It allows more shock travel cushion.There are services out there that will mod your OEM tophats.I've seen aftermarket tophats ,but they look like they were meant for coilovers.If you plan to mod your own read the following:
+++SiWagon FYI: Tophat WARNINGS & Specs
Sway Bars
THe top Racing Civic CRXs & HBs run NO front sway bar and add a rear bar.Our Wagons have more OVERSTEER than the Civic HB or CRX due to the added rear weight bias.That's why I haven't installed a DA rear bar that I 've got sitting in my garage.For the street the Wgn. OEM set-up works quite well.
Front Sway bar:
Any EF (aftermarket too)front sway bar fit.The Wgn.floor is shaped a bit different, so is incredibly tricky snaking the sway bar through, especially w/o a hoist. It's a straight sway bar R&R except you may have to remove the cat & drop the shift linkage.A lot of Autoxer's & road racer use NO front sway bar at all.OEM Sizes:
NO BAR Base HB
17.2mm(hollow) CRX HF
18 mm CRX Si(&DX),HB
19 mm Wagon & Sdn.
Aftermarket:
22.5mm(7/8'')
25.4mm (1'')
Rear Sway bar makes the Wgn. handle DRASTICALLY better!It feels like you put in the most expensive high-end coil-over's & worth every minute of effort !
You'll need a pair of EF Si/DA rear LCA( with threaded hole to mount the end-link) & a rear sway bar from 1 of these:
13mm EF HB Si
15mm EF CRX Si
14.7mm DA coupe
15.9mm DA sedan
19mm? OEM Integra Type R .The ITR(19mm?)rear bar is maybe the most extreme you can go .
The OEM bar is''soft'' enough to keep the car under control. mini wrote a good Rear bar DIY
A aftermarket rear bar is too stiff & there's been stories of rear fish-tailing like Drifters.
Upper Control Arm: Replace your Upper Outer Control Arm bolts with the bolts out of the '92+ Civic/Integra Upper Outer Control Arm(10x68mm).These bolts have a ribbed shank instead of a smooth shank to prevent bolts from rusting to the outer sleeve.
Upper Strut Bars:
EF front strut bars fit. The strut bars make a noticeable differences in cars that have been in accidents. I've talked to EF owner's that cornered so hard that the lack of a front strut bar caused their windshield to crack!
EF rear strut bars are too long.Wgn.strut bolt to bolt is 1004mm vs 1043mm(CRX)
Bushings:You can pretty much use any aftermarket EF bushing(s).
Front Braces:
A front lower brace is good cause it's like adding frame. These braces are kinda ''H'',shaped and mount to various points under the car, yet still clear things(e.g. oil pan etc.).None were made for the EF.Watch the ground clearance.I've seen people modifying EG one's to fit their EF's.
Rear Lower Tie Bars:
NOT needed.The Wagon's subframe that holds the diff(acts like a tie bar) is so massive that it dwarfs any of the aftermarket rear lower tie bar. EF rear lower tie bar ''looks'' like it'll mount on,but won't because the curved OEM subframe & exhaust pipes are in the way.
Comments
What coilovers have applications specific for our wagons? If I choose DA coilovers would they have a higher rate than an EF application?
There NO wagons specific coilovers .Yes DA coilovers typically have stiffer springs which works fine for the Wgn.
Someone really needs to make a definitive and final discussion about this because the ones that exist are very confusing.
We know what gives us those options, but what products WORK for it to get to that status that we would like to reach.
Si, sorry to bring up an old thread, but I'm a little confused by what you mean with the line that's in red?
Reason I am asking is I've been thinking about putting a little bit of lift on my wagon and making it a bit stiffer so I can start doing some rally/rallycross.
Could you help me out? Anybody can chime in on this one...
If u use 4WD springs on your 2WD it'll be about 3/4" taller.What Honda did was to put taller springs on the 4WD Wgn. that were 3/4"(19mm) taller(listed in HSM) and about 10% stiffer( by my calculations).
You may look into using DA rear springs on DA rear shx.They're both stiffer.The big advantage of the DA rear shx is there's 1.5" more travel 'cuz it's a longer body,which is a big plus for rallying..Check lengths b4 buying.You may need to cut coils.
Check DA front shx too.The body is about a 1"(25mm) longer(That's a good thing) & stiffer.You probably won't notice the difference in frt.or rr. shx stiffness.
i was going to put 2wd Shuttle springs on my RT, but i dont think it will drop it enough
so im just going to get coilovers instead :twisted:
thanks for that info! so, basically, if I use DA suspension I might possibly get some lift and be a little stiffer to withstand some of the offroad abuse? Would I use the 4wd wagon spring on the DA shocks for the front?
I want my wagon to be a beast in the snow, but right now i am tucking all four tires and need to bring it back to atleast stock height.
Would I be correct in using a full OEM DA setup? Or will it not be even?
In the spring ill be dropping it again but for the winter i need something that can handle severe abuse
As far as the ,"full OEM DA setup" like I said you may need to cut coil(s).Read clsmooth's quote again to get your '"even" answer. On the matter of ,"severe abuse" that's your call.
For Street:Stick with what you got.The Wgn. has a bit more oversteer than the EF HB.I've found the OEM shx to be good.You can use shx from a DC2. The OEM Wgn. is well balanced,which is why I have a set of '89+ LCA/shx/sway bar sitting in my garage that I can't justify putting in.Here's something funny .The Integra uses the same type of cast LCA as the '89+Wgn.,BUT went back to the same type of lighter stamp steel LCA as the '88Wgn. for the lengendary ITR. :shock:
For Track/Race:The only reason to use '89+ LCA's is Sway bar options.
care to elaborate?