All around street performance suspension set-up.
Tadas
Wagonist
Hello,
Since I am building my wagon I do have many lingering questions, so I am sorry ahead of time for asking so much.
However, I did search all over the forum, but there are only a few old threads of track oriented wagons.
Or there is both positive and negative info about certain things.
First, my wagon is a 4wd one, and it is a fairly light vehicle, and has good weight distribution (55/45), so it inherently should handle pretty well.
There also is not much weight in front to make it understeer like crazy with the right set up.
My plan would be to try and make the wagon nimble, and have a neutral or maybe even a little oversteery behaviour in the corners.
These are the parts I have purchased and waiting for them to get to me for install:
- rota rkr 15x8 et0 wheels wrapped in 225/50-15" tires (more tire = more grip. But later on I might go for toyo proxies).
- SK import lca + rear camber kit.
- SK import UCA camber kit.
- Front upper strut brace.
- Weitec springs and shocks from 5th gen hatch ( used item, a KW branch, german when new $600+ usd kit, got it for $110, should be good? ).
Things that I consider buying:
- rear upper strut tower brace: read mixed opinions, also read that most of the time they do NOT fit, and if it is adjustable one then it sucks from the get go.
- rear swaybar. Read that it ought to help. Also read that it needs modification to fit and work.
Please give your opinion, I will go on and experiment with various set ups and mods, because I believe our platform is ultra cool and has potential.
Since I am building my wagon I do have many lingering questions, so I am sorry ahead of time for asking so much.
However, I did search all over the forum, but there are only a few old threads of track oriented wagons.
Or there is both positive and negative info about certain things.
First, my wagon is a 4wd one, and it is a fairly light vehicle, and has good weight distribution (55/45), so it inherently should handle pretty well.
There also is not much weight in front to make it understeer like crazy with the right set up.
My plan would be to try and make the wagon nimble, and have a neutral or maybe even a little oversteery behaviour in the corners.
These are the parts I have purchased and waiting for them to get to me for install:
- rota rkr 15x8 et0 wheels wrapped in 225/50-15" tires (more tire = more grip. But later on I might go for toyo proxies).
- SK import lca + rear camber kit.
- SK import UCA camber kit.
- Front upper strut brace.
- Weitec springs and shocks from 5th gen hatch ( used item, a KW branch, german when new $600+ usd kit, got it for $110, should be good? ).
Things that I consider buying:
- rear upper strut tower brace: read mixed opinions, also read that most of the time they do NOT fit, and if it is adjustable one then it sucks from the get go.
- rear swaybar. Read that it ought to help. Also read that it needs modification to fit and work.
Please give your opinion, I will go on and experiment with various set ups and mods, because I believe our platform is ultra cool and has potential.
Comments
Changing to different springs and struts stiffened things up even further. I've also upgraded the bushings everywhere too, not sure if you've already done that, but that definitely helps as well.
Rear sway bar = ST suspensions for off the shelf https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?17538-Suspension-Techniques-Rear-Sway-Bar-install-on-RT4WD-DIY&p=209713#post209713
but this is better for the same money but more work: https://www.facebook.com/notes/hollis-racing/the-hollis-bar-diy-rear-sway-for-st-hondas/202403919843582
and you can make it fit our position with correct length arms better than anything else. and no bend means it wont hit the diff on a RT
225 is quite a bit of tire though, on a 15x8 with 0 offset is going to be in your fender without tons of camber. May want to do a little more research there unless you're planning overfenders or something.
https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?18438-Rear-Sway-bar-inquiry&highlight=rear+sway+bar
The first pic is from a different guide, they actually welded up end links from stock parts and used some SI lower control arms I think. I have the function 7 LCAs and since you have the skunks, I didn't see the need to go that route with it.
I just had to shim it up and add some longer bolts because my end links were short. I'd paid $70 for the end links so I didn't want them to just end up in a box somewhere and me end up getting some new ones. The shims let me get it as close to 90 degrees as possible though, which was nice.
I do have massive welded fenders front and rear. The tires will tuck perfectly. You can check my build thread on here. So it will not be a problem of being too wide, I do have the tires and rims on the car now.
Thank you for excellent info about the sway bar.
But still the question remains does it work and does our car get improved handling because of it?
Yep, Gargamel has some fat flare. Though I didn't think the question remained about it working, rear sway bar makes a marked improvement. Like Abide said, it works.
I would not recommend putting a large rear sway bar (well, any sway bar on the rear, for that matter) for a performance setup. Too big of a bar will lift the rear inside wheel off the ground. Unless you put an LSD back there, that will render the AWD useless in those situations.
I would recommend using at least 400# springs front and rear. If you are wanting the car to be neutral to oversteer, use a heavier spring in the rear.
I'm currently driving my Wagon with my CRX autoX setup on it that has 450# springs front and 650# in the back. With no sway bar and the stock 19mm up front. I would recommend a larger bar up front to help keep the rear wheels on the ground during trailbraking and turn-in.
This is extremely valuable information!
For now I do have a premade used kw set of springs and shocks for 5G civic waiting for install.
However for the life of me I cannot find the spring rates for about the kit.
I did plan on getting a bc racing coilover kit with 350/250 spring rate. But now if I order a set it will have to come with custom 400/500 or so spring rates. Usually they come with more lbs in front.
Also, my wagon is rt4wd, does the rear diff not have an lsd in it from factory? If not it would be nice to get one with it.
I will look for a larger front sway bar as you suggested.
Finally, would you give more info of how your wagon set up behaves under road race/ autoX situations?
Thank you again for this info, I will have to spend much less euro and time working out the proper set up for occasional track days and twisty fun.
alternatively i have a gigantic 32mm on the front of my s2000 to make it quit understeering like a piggy when it isnt wearing 255s up front.
My setup:
Fortune Auto 500 coilovers
Skunk2 Pro front upper camber arms
Ingalls rear camber arms
Energy Suspension bushes
Rota Slipstream 16x8
Falken ZE912 205/40/16
I avoided spherical bearing stuff because it needs to be usable for multiple different event types and still stay reasonably comfortable on the road.
I do not agree that more tyre is better. You run into issues with tram-lining and a loss of turn-in.
My setup is pretty basic and the thing handles AWESOMELY.
may i ask what front sway setup you went with? i been thinking of upping mine up , after the sway in the rear i think it needs a little more in the front to balance the over steer in tight agressive situations
Sorry man Im not even sure which sway bar it is. I got it off a buddy who had it on his 91 hatch that he used for autocross. It was a normal looking 22mm sway bar with poly bushings. I paid $20 for it lol. Ill let you know if I find a make or model.
- rota rkr 15x8 et0 wheels
- new toyo proxy t1r's 205/45 R15
- SK import lca + rear camber kit.
- SK import UCA camber kit.
- Front upper strut brace.
- Rear upper strut brace.
- Weitec springs and shocks from 5th gen hatch ( used item, a KW branch )
Onto my problems after a long drive:
- Front swaybar rubbers are all dead, so I need to replace them, or possibly get a new swaybar?
- Rear swaybar, after re-reading this thread I still do not know if I should just buy a smaller one and install it for oversteer fun!
- Random - when accelerating my car sort of pulls to the right, and when I let of gas it jolts to the left. Is this my alignment screwed up, or maybe even the diff?
Since I am slowly making my car streetable again, I want to spend some money on suspension, but for the time being keeping the weitec shocks and springs. I will buy coilovers later on when everything is perfect.
Please help me out so I can enjoy the wagon to the fullest.
Alignment usually pulls to one side only.
I would check for some worn bushings first. perhaps the adjustable camber kit parts are loose as well...?
The CRX had a 22mm rear bar on it at the time.
The wheels are rota R15 EJ8 wide, and 0ET offset. Make note that I have ridiculous metal fenders on my shuttle.
Also, it has been lowered. Please look at the 10th page of my thread - you can see how my updated wagon sits on these wheels:
https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?17598-Lithuanian-1992-Shuttle-named-quot-Gargamel-quot/page10
However I do have a question for the gurus:
I currently run Weitec springs and shocks from 5th gen hatch ( used item, a KW branch, german when new $600 ) :
I really like the ride, but here is the deal - since it is from 5th gen hatch I had to switch the front forks to larger diameter hole ones.
Problem - the front of the car sits higher then the rear.
Option 1 - Since the springs are linear, could I just saw off the front ones by a bit?
Option 2 - what kind of lowering springs could I order to fix this imbalance? Or will they all cause even more misalignment?
I do want a soft ride so I was looking into eibach proline springs for 5th gen hatchback - they probably should just bolt in and be progressive instead of linear.
Option 3 - I would rather spend $220 on new springs then try and order BC racing Type RS street coilovers with 6kg front 4kg rear (or like 7/5) since they cost $1000+ and I might not even like them.
Spring is coming, I will install the rear swaybar and I want to make the wagon sit flush, just like it should.
Please help! Now is a good time to save up and make an order.
https://www.mpcmotorsport.com/product-page/billet-drop-forks
What do you think?