Looking for some advice

faus7rav3nfaus7rav3n Band Wagon
in General Civic Wagon Discussion
I am looking for an RT4WD, but up in my area many of the guys that own them, apparently think they are made of gold. I have, however, found several DX Auto FWD Wagons in the area at a more reasonable price. I also have my eyes on a junked/part out of a manual RT4WD. I'm wondering if it is even worth entertaining the idea of cobbling the parts together to convert an auto 2WD to manual RT4WD. I've only searched a little bit on this forum and some initial Google searches showed very little on the topic. The fact that I've found very little on the topic, even during my initial searches, seems like it might not be worth the effort. I'm sure this question gets asked several times a week. I've seen some CRX's and maybe some 4th Gens with the RT4WD swaps, so I know there is some hope since this is moving Wagon to Wagon.

Parts diagrams show very little differences between the 2WD and 4WD rear subframe mount points. Is there any reason it can't be done? Chassis imposed limitations?

If I can transplant an RT4WD for $2000, why would I want to spend $3000-4000 on someone else's sentimental feelings for a car?

Thanks for any help in advance.

Tim

Comments

  • slo88crxslo88crx Senior Wagonist
    Honestly it's probably a lot of work. But I would do it. Only because I like doing that sort of thing. Really it depends on your mechanical skill level also. Parts wise you would need everything. Although I've never done it. But I have owned both. Then there is the fact that the auto dx is dpfi and the RT is mpfi. It can be done and has been done.

    Realistically You have to be dedicated to the project and have plenty of time.
    So if you want to take the easy way out I would save and just buy an RT.
  • bam-bambam-bam Council Member
    But... If you can get the RT4wd parts car, and a clean DX auto shell, you've got all you need. Like slo said- lots of work, but I dig that kind of thing.
    edit: and I'm not sure the particular swap you're asking about has been done here. Truthfully, the majority of our members consider suspension removal and a shift knob as a "mod list". Dare to be different. I'll help!
  • quartersquarters Council Member
    My advice is this, be willing to travel, have cash in your pocket. If i limited myself to buying locally, i would own nothing but rust. Where do you live?
  • greenteagodgreenteagod Moderator
    If you can do it, do it. That's some good cred to have and would definitely be worthwhile knowing that you've gone through the entire driveline and make sure everything is proper. I don't have a parts wagon available myself, but it's been a serious consideration. But like the others have said, I'd need to weigh my expertise against time and money and what would it end up costing me in those compared to spending the extra cash for the 4wd from the get go.

    As far as doing it though, like was previously mentioned, you need everything. A rolling shell junker with a crap body is the way to go. If you do it I hope for thorough documentation on the subject.
  • faus7rav3nfaus7rav3n Band Wagon
    I'm a jet engine mechanic for the USAF so I have some decent mechanical experience and I'm not afraid to tear stuff apart. I have some good experience working on vehicles. When I was stationed in Okinawa, I managed to cobble together and drift an AE86 Sprinter Levin from mostly junkyard parts. It was a junkyard special and the guy I bought it from gave me a rough deal, but he mentored me throughout the rebuild process letting me use his garage and materials to weld, fill the body, sand and paint. The end result wasn't pretty, but it slid like a dream.

    I am currently in WA State around the Tacoma area.

    The support from the veterans and mods for this potential project is just awesome. Not many sites give this warm a welcome to such a new face wanting to do something so audacious. I have no illusions that it will be easy nor as cheap as I make it out to be in my mind, but I figure, pieces of it could be done at a time. For example, the rear ends are so similar, one could probably swap them out on a weekend and have no appreciable difference in driveability. At that point it would be a matter of installing the rear diff and CV's whenever the engine/trans swap happened. At this point it's just a fall back plan, but I wanted to be sure that it should work in theory.

    The goal for the car is to have a semi-nice daily that can go just about anywhere, beat about with class and style, while hauling a bunch of stuff in the trunk.

    Tim

    Update: 3 of the RT4WD's in the area that I had eyes on and was ready to offer were sold out from under me. I was going to drive 1h 30m to meet a guy for a viewing and he didn't even call to tell me it was sold. POS Craigslisters. I do have my eyes on a fixer-upper though about 2.5h away...the search continues.
  • bam-bambam-bam Council Member
    Sounds like you'll have no problem if you decide to do the swap.

    In your example, the only thing about the rear end that's not a bolt-in would be the upper diff. mount. There are some captive nuts in the floorpan of the RT shell that aren't present on a DX. I'd look at bolting all the way through the hatch floor area with a plate inside, maybe? Other than that, you can't run the RT trailing arms without CV axles, or at least stubs or a large bolt to hold the axle bearings together.

    The biggest snag, to my mind, is the mounting for the twin carrier bearing to support the driveline and viscous coupler. There's some extra structural ribs and threaded inserts on the RT pan. The way I would overcome that is to swap a whole section of floorpan/tunnel between the seats. In fact, when I hauled off my donor car I saved that section for some future need.
  • bam-bambam-bam Council Member
    http://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?5080-Fool-s-Gold!-Size-DOES-matter/page4&highlight=Size+matter%21

    Look at post 80, a good shot of the whole package intact. The mount at the nose of the diff is the one in question.
  • faus7rav3nfaus7rav3n Band Wagon
    I see what you are saying. Not so sure this idea has much merit. It seems like too much work. Might as well just try to find a running RT4WD.

    How far is too far to travel for a car? I found one almost 500 miles away on the Boise CL that has been there for months. $180 one way tickets via Alaska vs. 8 hour cost to drive at $2.25+/gal. Decisions, decisions... Probably safer to recruit a fellow car enthusiast to go with me.
  • bam-bambam-bam Council Member
    If it's in Boise, you need to get shenrie to look at it for you. In fact, if it's in Boise shenrie knows about it, has owned it, or is the seller LOL. He's like the Boise bam-bam!
  • faus7rav3nfaus7rav3n Band Wagon
    bam-bam wrote: »
    If it's in Boise, you need to get shenrie to look at it for you. In fact, if it's in Boise shenrie knows about it, has owned it, or is the seller LOL. He's like the Boise bam-bam!

    Welp, the one on the Boise CL is gone. Apparently it was, "sold 2 weeks ago" and the advert wasn't taken down. In fact, it's still up even after I talked to the guy today. CL has been the bane of my existence for 3 weeks now. Searches turning up empty, sellers not pulling their ads, or simply thinking their cars are worth 4k+ when in fact they are beaten down. Starting to get annoyed.
  • Ryanthegreat1Ryanthegreat1 Wagonist
    Best of luck finding an RT here in the PNW. The cult following in strong here!

    The well picked over RT that was at pick-n-pull was even bought up to restore.
  • faus7rav3nfaus7rav3n Band Wagon
    Well that is certainly disheartening. The search continues!
  • arries289arries289 Wagonist
    IMO - If you want a RT4WD, you should find one and go get it. Be prepared to travel. You will be more likely to get your money back out if it when (and if) you sell it. The reason people want $3-4K+ for a good one is they are hard to find in good, original condition and the demand is there. I am sure you have figured that out. I had to go to PA to get mine and I live in FL - a plane ticket and 1000 mile drive back home. .
  • ragenasianragenasian Moderator
    Be patient I think is what everyone is really trying to tell you. I started looking at wagons a couple of years before one landed literally in the next town ( I do realize that you don't want to wait a couple of years). I hate driving to go see anything because usually I am disappointed or what you already have experienced is that when you get there, it is no longer there. Hit a few of these guys up and have them keep an eye out for you. Been working with the military here in Germany for the past 16 years, and whenever I needed help from the good old USA there was plenty of help to be found here, and you won't find a better group of guys/gals then you will find on this forum. Good luck and thanks for your service! (My family is from Okinawa, lovely place, got a piece of land near Camp Schwab waiting for a house to be built on it, also running a Levin AE86 here in Germany too)!

    Might want to hit CHARB up as well. I believe he is in Spokane WA and always seems to have good luck at getting wagons.
  • LowFlyin'LowFlyin' Moderator
    Here you go > http://tulsa.craigslist.org/cto/4818102781.html

    This one is close enough to me, I'd be willing to procure and hold it for you until you can come get it.

    We have one of the largest AFB in the country in my back yard.

    Let me know.
  • faus7rav3nfaus7rav3n Band Wagon
    @ arries - The problem is, the ones that want 3 - 4k have less than stellar examples. In fact, one on CL out here with a straight body, coilovers, rims and nice interior just sold for $2800, a far cry from the asking price of 4k with mechnical/busted body and in need of serious cleaning. People just think their cars are worth more because of a perceived value, when in reality there is none.

    @ LowFlyin' - Tulsa is a little too far for me to drive it back to WA and as far as I know it's fairly pricey to ship it too. I might be able to snag a hop-flight headed that direction, which would significantly lessen the costs, but until that happens, I'm a little hesitant. The wife certainly wouldn't support that trip since she understands it to be a commuter and not a project car (lol). I would love to have it, Red is my favorite color.

    @ ragen - Thanks for the support! Okinawa is a beautiful country and I wish I could get orders to go back. I miss the culture there and want to share the experience with my family.
  • LowFlyin'LowFlyin' Moderator
    I called on the wagon in Tulsa yesterday. The dude's wife answered and said they had someone coming by today that is supposed to buy it. If that falls through, she'd let me know.

    I don't mind helping someone out that is involved with the armed forces...and I have a shop with plenty of tools so we can work on it to make sure it's road trip worthy.

    You might also check on shipping. I'd imagine you'd be able to get it shipped for under $1000. ...but honestly, what's the fun in that? :)
  • slo88crxslo88crx Senior Wagonist
    I know this one is a little much but comes with full manual conversion. I just completed mine and plan to do a write up. Also it's local and your color.
    https://flic.kr/p/qVcVUy
  • MrWhoopeeMrWhoopee Wagonist
    Redding, CA
    http://redding.craigslist.org/cto/4968241939.html

    Needs a motor, but that's way easier than what you had in mind. Body even looks decent, and its $1300! I'd grab it myself for parts, but I already have 3. Wait, now that I think about it.......
  • skittlenipsskittlenips Wagonist
    I did an auto-to-manual RT4wd swap, and I can tell you that you'll have to cut off and weld on a new passenger side transmission mount. The manual RT trans has a different mount point than any of the other transmissions in these cars.

    Just from that experience alone, I'd say that you'll save yourself a lot of hassle if you just find an RT. Also try to find good driveshafts if you can, replacing the U joints is a gigantic pain in the ass (but it can be done).
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