Beginner. Anything else to replace while changing a headgasket?
MiX
Band Wagon
Hi, all!
Been lurking, but figured I might as well ask. I have a questionable situation and little experience.
Wondering if there's some things you guys could suggest that I freshen up while I'm changing the head gasket.
I've been following a tutorial, and am currently at this stage.
What I've got:
- 91 Civic Wagon, manual, various after-market mods from previous owner.
- I've done my best to keep it in good health, but the guy who sold it to me abused the heck out of it. I have no record of any maintenance that was done by the owner before him who tried to soup it up. (I doubt his skill. EG, he slapped poorly-fitting Skunk springs on it that I've since replaced.)
- I know that the car has some racing brand exhaust manifold (I think that's what it's called? The pipes that take the exhaust from the block toward the tail pipe). It also might have had one of those ...ehm... "header packages(?)" since that part looks much newer than the bit that sits atop it.
Current issue is:
- Primary issue is a (most likely) blown head gasket. Same kind of symptoms as this poster had.
- Possible issue with the doo-hickey that charges the battery while it's running. (Alternator?)
- Maybe transmission/clutch issues, not sure. It's hard to shift into first or downshift into second.
Thinking of replacing these things while I'm at it:
- bolts that go in the head since they're subject to lots of heat and likely older than I am
- timing belt
- water pump
- spark plugs and their rubber ring dealie-doo's
- vacuum tubes and such
- then of course flush the oil (new filter) and coolant when done.
(I suppose testing for vacuum leaks needs to be done at a shop, right?)
A colleague also suggested that I have the "heads trued" and a "valve job" done. From what I can tell, the head truing needs to be done by a machine shop, right? I'm also having a hard time getting a grasp on valve jobs. Most of the tutorials I keep finding are either for motorcycles, experienced mechanics, or have very little detail/no photos.
I did get an original shop manual, but it's a little beyond my current level...
Is there anything else I should knock out while I'm at it? I'm not afraid to fail and have all the time in the world. Trying to learn as I go, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated! I can post any photos of parts or give more detail if that helps.
Been lurking, but figured I might as well ask. I have a questionable situation and little experience.
Wondering if there's some things you guys could suggest that I freshen up while I'm changing the head gasket.
I've been following a tutorial, and am currently at this stage.
What I've got:
- 91 Civic Wagon, manual, various after-market mods from previous owner.
- I've done my best to keep it in good health, but the guy who sold it to me abused the heck out of it. I have no record of any maintenance that was done by the owner before him who tried to soup it up. (I doubt his skill. EG, he slapped poorly-fitting Skunk springs on it that I've since replaced.)
- I know that the car has some racing brand exhaust manifold (I think that's what it's called? The pipes that take the exhaust from the block toward the tail pipe). It also might have had one of those ...ehm... "header packages(?)" since that part looks much newer than the bit that sits atop it.
Current issue is:
- Primary issue is a (most likely) blown head gasket. Same kind of symptoms as this poster had.
- Possible issue with the doo-hickey that charges the battery while it's running. (Alternator?)
- Maybe transmission/clutch issues, not sure. It's hard to shift into first or downshift into second.
Thinking of replacing these things while I'm at it:
- bolts that go in the head since they're subject to lots of heat and likely older than I am
- timing belt
- water pump
- spark plugs and their rubber ring dealie-doo's
- vacuum tubes and such
- then of course flush the oil (new filter) and coolant when done.
(I suppose testing for vacuum leaks needs to be done at a shop, right?)
A colleague also suggested that I have the "heads trued" and a "valve job" done. From what I can tell, the head truing needs to be done by a machine shop, right? I'm also having a hard time getting a grasp on valve jobs. Most of the tutorials I keep finding are either for motorcycles, experienced mechanics, or have very little detail/no photos.
I did get an original shop manual, but it's a little beyond my current level...
Is there anything else I should knock out while I'm at it? I'm not afraid to fail and have all the time in the world. Trying to learn as I go, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated! I can post any photos of parts or give more detail if that helps.
Comments
91212-PE0-662
022
001
OIL SEAL (31X46X8)
11.38
7.97
I've been doing tons of research. Been slowly and carefully tearing down the head over these past two weeks, and by the looks of it, I think the gasket is indeed what failed. Got a little rust on the #4 cylinder, and the gasket is as hard as a rock (and super brittle when trying to peel it off). It's toasty!
So toasty in fact, it's cemented to the bottom of the head.
The block seems fairly decent given the abuse it saw from the previous owner, but the head has me worried. Lots of corrosion on the valves and... what's the term... that orange film build-up on the top where the rockers are. But that should be remedied by the machine shop, right? I found a local place that will clean the head and then check for cracks for $45, and if it needs to be machined, another $45. Sound reasonable?
Once I get word back from them on the status of the cracks (or ideally the lack thereof) I'll move on.
Next on the to-do list while waiting:
- Ordering a new gasket set for the whole shebang
- Cleaning off the gasket residue on the block
- Replacing the PCV valve and cleaning out the breather (seems to be the cause of the odd idle issues)
- clean out the grime and muck
- re-wrap and resolder misc wires
- replace the O2 sensor
- check the alternator
- replace the water pump while I'm at it.
Do you guys have any preferred suppliers you can recommend for a complete gasket set? The ones I've been pricing out ran anywhere from $40 to $140 on ebay. I know you get what you pay for, but store markup doesn't necessary mean better quality. u_u
Oh! And one last thing, I did notice some odd soot buildup on the #1 and #4 intake and exhaust ports. (I think they're called ports? Where the manifolds join with the head, I mean.)
Exhaust with the gasket removed:
and intake (gasket is stuck on the intake manifold), below:
I never heard any kind of... what's it called... "blow back" I think? (When there's a loud pop sound coming out the exhaust?) Anyway, whatever that symptom is called, I have not encountered it. The car has run perfectly fine up until recently in that respect.
It's a bit odd that the middle two ports are so clean in comparison, though. Don't let that darkness fool you-- that's not a shadow. Its caked on carbon!
Naaaaaaaasty!
Anything to be worried about?
Sure hope to get my baby back on the road soon. Gosh, I love this car so much! There's just something about these 4th gen wagons, am I right?
I'll definitely use that 2000 civic ex headgasket, but I do need the other bits as well-- like the ones for the spark plug holes, and where the screws go atop the head's... lid... thingy. Cylinder head cover?
Anyway, I'm going to replace more than just the headgasket itself. I've read that any D-series engine gasket set will do. Is that right?
(2000 civic ex is D-series from what I can tell, right? D16Y8, whereas mine should be D15B2 since it's the American wagon dx.)
Good luck!
And thanks for the confirmation, Madr0x!
Hondamatic-- is the multilayer one the kind that has that shiny layer within? The one on mine shredded into multiple layers when I tried to peel it off, and I saw some shiny metal layer within. I'm not sure how to tell the graphite kind from the multilayer steel you're referring to. Are those the kind that are just thin layers of metal all by themselves that are sort of clamped onto each other? The gasket on my exhaust manifold had one like that. Are those the better choice, then?
But yes, I totally agree! d-series.org and honda-tech.com have so many useful threads, I've been lurking on them this whole time as well.
I don't know how helpful it might be, but in case anyone else stumbles on this thread and is as clueless as I was when I started (and still sort of am), these may help clear some things up:
- complete list of D series Honda engines (so you can search for donors at junkyards).
- an introduction to the "mini me swap" that you may have heard about (I was confused for the longest time, but am now tempted to try it later).
- some more mini me swap info
- I had another really great one I wanted to share, but I can't find the link at the moment. I'll post it if I do.
___________
EDIT:
Found those links!
- Engine swap guide, FAQs and Index thread ("This thread is more detailed in specific things you will need to swap different engine models")
- How to do the BIG 3 upgrade (electrical system)
These, especially the former, have incredibly helpful info!!
___________
- Also, make sure you grab a manual. I managed to get an original shop manual on ebay for $25-- but watch out, the wagon edition does look different from the sedan one and so forth. Since I have a 4th gen (91), mine looks like this:
Whereas the non-wagon one is nearly identical in color and font. (Just doesn't say wagon, lol.)
So I guess this is somewhat an engine build thread for newbies now?
Hope it serves as encouragement-- I couldn't tell you what a PCV valve was before I started.
As long as you take your time, keep a cool head, and most importantly arm yourself with a lot of research (and input from sage elders
Thanks so much, everyone! I'm learning so much-- I'll keep at it!
How did the clearance difference between MLS and graphite gaskets work out for you, Hondamatic? Do I need to do anything special to compensate so the valves don't come in contact with the piston heads? From what I can tell, the MLS ones seem to be ~75.5mm thick, but I'm not sure how thick the graphite ones normally are. (I don't trust mine to measure up properly for reference since it's ancient...)
And did the coolant/water ports line up well? To reference, I was comparing this one and that one. They look identical to me, but just thought I'd doublecheck to be safe.
I recommend FelPro gaskets, but whatever the brand buy a "head gasket set". It will come with all gaskets and seals from the head up.
Go ahead and pay the money to have the head at least cleaned and resurfaced. If you plan to keep the car, go ahead and have the head reworked (about $300 in my area).
Be very careful when cleaning the sealing surfaces. The most common problem amateurs get into with head gasket jobs is trying to get the surface "too clean". In trying to remove all traces of gasket, it's easy to remove some aluminum as well. Don't try to polish it, and whatever you do don't use any power tools on it.
I concur with this.
The MLS gaskets are not really something a shade tree mechanic can install quickly and cheaply. Most Honda service manuals requires the head gasket surface to be fine finished to a specific value of roughness average.
see this article for some general tips on resurfacing cylinder heads.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ic697.htm
I will now share my experiences wrong or right....
I have been using MLS gaskets for a long time on many engines from H22's, F22's, d16's, and a 1JZ-GTE. When I can't get a good mating surface I use copper gasket spray. You will have to research it and see if you want to use it. I'm not recommending it, but used properly I believe it can help with a bad/not ideal head gasket mating surface. Cometic MLS Gasket's come with a type of "copper gasket spray" already sprayed on. If im going to spray one with my copper spray i use acetone to remove their coating. I have a stock d16y8 with a Cometic MLS using copper gasket spray I am on 30k miles with no problems. Many people say to stay away from it at all costs they may be right but so far in my experiences used right it can solve some roughness average issues.
here is an argument against copper spray so you have all the info.
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?29335-Thinking-About-Using-Spray-Sealer-on-a-MHG-...Might-Want-to-Read-This
his main reasoning is because the copper spray has acetone in it, this acetone can damage the fluoroelastomer coating on the MLS over time. I belive the the acetone in the copper spray is only a application medium and all of it evaporates before the install.
I have not used/installed a composite head gasket before, I have only replaced them due to failure after a relatively short time. But I do believe that the main reason for composite failure is not re-torquing the head bolts after break-in.
Yes, I won't be able to machine the block because I haven't access to an engine hoist.
I do plan to do a casual side build of a mini me once this thing is running, so I can swap the whole shebang, trans included, in a few years. I'll give the MLS gaskets a try on that build, then since all those surfaces will be machined. Thanks!!
Ah, will do. I've got a ride today, so I'm taking the head in. I'll have them rework the head after checking for cracks like you and hondamatic say. Thanks!!
Ok, I'll be super delicate with it. I plan to use the method that calls for a new razor blade. I'll be careful and work from the inside out so the debris doesn't get into the antifreeze compartment.
Oh! By the way, bam-bam, aren't you the one who made that wagon camper? The one with the engine bay chopped off and the inside stripped out to be a trailer? I really loved that post! It's actually what got me into fixing mine up a couple years back or so.
EDIT:
Aha!! Took ages, but I found the name of the stuff. "Permatex gasket remover."
While cleaning off the gasket residue, I slipped and bumped the exhaust manifold while trying to catch myself from falling. It scraped the surface of the block pretty bad.
(finger for size reference)
I guess the block needs to be resurfaced now, too, huh?
Sad times.
I'll get on that right away, I really appreciate it.
As for general progress:
Still waiting on parts to arrive in the mail. Will hear back from the machine shop as to the condition of the head.
It looks a lot cleaner, but all of the bolts are loose and there seems to be this fine powder crud all over it and in the tighter areas. I wasn't expecting them to dismantle the head when they cleaned it since I thought it was just going to be tanked. I was hoping to not have to tear this thing all apart since changing the head gasket alone was fairly intimidating as it was, but from what I've been reading it sounds like I'll need to do that.
The manual makes it look like I'll need an "In-Car Spring Compressor" among other things, so I'm very weary about proceeding. Here's what it looks like:
(Pardon the quality, I've moved to the graveyard shift, so I'm doing my work in the dead of night...)
(Ugh, I hoped that the valves would have been cleaned.... they're still very gross. There's also lots of burs on the underside here that I need to file down.)
So much junk up in there. It's hard to tell if that lumpy stuff is just a deckled surface covered in dust, or if it's actual grit up in there. The grooves are too thin for a cotton swab to get up into as you can see.
So, not sure what would be the best course of action. What do you guys think? I guess I could pick up a can of compressed air.
Oh, and when the guy at the machine shop handed it over, he gave me these two little tubes:
He hardly spoke any English, so I was at a loss as to what they are. As best as I can tell, I think they may be the "Dowel Pins" mentioned in the exploded diagram on the "Cylinder Head/Valve Train Illustrated Index" page of the manual. Not sure, though. The diagram makes it look like they belong between the Head and the Rocker Arm Assembly, but the closest things I can find on the internet regarding "dowel pins" for these engines are forum posts about using them to keep the head gasket aligned while lowering the head onto the block. I'm very confused now.
Sigh.
Well, as for some good news, I did manage to finally clean up the gasket residue on the block and intake manifold. There's a few small spots that just won't come clean. Over the past week and a half I've gone at this thing with about half a dozen razon blades, some gasket remover foam, and a few green scotch brite pads. Hope it's clean enough now. If I apply any more elbow grease I think I'll be removing aluminum.
Since it was top dead center, those upward two pistons got cleaned around the edges in the process. I decided "why not" and went to town on them. Manually rotated the engine to clean the other two as well since I wanted to check those upward ones' walls for cracks anyway, then reversed it back to where it was at TDC. It's nice and clean, now. I got all the debris out in the process. I'm gonna take a shop vac to the wells later to try and suck out any debris that got down there as well. I suppose those 10 holes bottom out and aren't open to the crank case below, right? I do intend to flush the fluids anyway when it's all said and done, but figured this would help.
TL;DR:
Hopefully I'll be done soon so I won't have to keep biking everywhere. u_u
Thanks so much, guys! I really appreciate the guidance!
Edit:
I think I might be able to just use this method to check for any high spots on the block since the head is totally flat. Seems like this method is used a lot with stuff like blue permatex. I'll give it a shot.
IT LIIIIIIIVEEESSSSSSSSSSS!!!
To sum up what went down since the last update:
- the shop indeed neglected to install the seals so I had to take it back
- ordered a new pcv valve and head dowels
- put everything back together again
- it still wouldn't turn over-- there was no spark
- today I tore down the entire dizzy, tested every last bit
- had to replace the coil, cover, and ignition wires
- after a little jump start, it starts right up!
The brakes seem to have rusted over a little so it took a little nudge to get going at first and it kinda grinds a little. It also idles real rough so Imma check the tuning, if that's the right term. I mean like, I might have to loosen those three bolts on the dizzy and nudge it a little bit one way or the other. Oh, and Imma get some new hose clamps cause they're leaking coolant a little bit now.
Nothing mission critical. Though, it seems to lag a hell of a lot at the start of first and second gear. I don't think it's my imagination, but the thing had a lot more punch before this whole fiasco started. Hoping that's just tuning related.
Anyway, thanks so much for all your help, everyone!
Hope anyone else seeing this thread can get the confidence to give it a try. I literally went into this with experience doing just oil/tire changes, and changing a radiator and thermostat. Don't worry, you can do it!!
I'm a bit sunburnt from all this work over the weekend since it was a pain in the ass working at night, so I'll try and post some pics of the finished job once I'm feeling less tender. Time to relax.
Funny thing, right when I went to do that, an electrical issue cropped up. I traced it down to the main relay which was buzzing whenever I'd turn the ignition, and according to the multimeter tests, seems that its just barely under voltage when the ignition is engaged. (And not grounded quite as well as it should be.) Since all the fuses are good, the shop manual concluded that it's some loose wire between either the ignition switch and the battery, and/or ignition switch and the fusebox, and/or fuse box and the main relay. (I did also open the relay and resolder like 8 bad joints that were in there, and it tested within spec, but the buzzing remains.)
My back is really killing me at this point, so I said F it and sent it into a nearby shop to handle. But you're totally right-- I feel like a million bucks for being able to do all of this! lol I'm sure my room mates must've had a running bet as to whether or not the thing would start once I put it back together. Or if I could even get it back together. LOL!!