Ok guys, here it is... the last set of pics! Thankfully mother nature was quite responsive today with a great rain shower nearing sunset, and the lighting was really quite nice
The car is now done, the owner is extremely happy, and now we'll meet it and its owner for the alignment and tuning this week, and depending on the owners schedule, possibly even track time!
And thats all for now folks! Keep an eye out for our next two K series swaps One white beast, and a yellow-bellied Y-49 disaster... haha! They are under the knife as i type this
wow John I am impressed with the final product, those pictures say it all.
I commend you and your shop for the impecable work you've put into that car. Wanna hear sometin crazy? I actually thought that the crx was your shop-car :shock: Thats why I thought you put such attention to detail into it, great job :!:
If I can ask how much did you charge your customer for this swap?
In case some members here are interested... :roll:
I may have a wagon to donate to the cause, but its pretty rusty :x
akira: LoL... yea, a lot of people think its a shop car... hehe. I WISH it was a shop car, because it IS nice. However, the actual "shop car" is that yellow one in the bottom pic. And it is going a step further along with the white one.
Both of the next two "swaps" are actually complete restorations... the chassis is being taken down to nothing, sandblasted, and brought back with all new seals, suspension, bushings, etc... Yea, i'm not asking for TOO much work or anything... haha! Thankfully i have help in the shop these days.
As for cost? well, that is a really tough thing to say... with a swap like this, it can vary greatly depending on how far you want to go, and how many corners you want cut. i.e. a polite way of me saying "each one is different, and i won't tell exactly what this one cost to do"... Haha!
But realistically, with what i've experienced with this swap, you may as well ask yourself a simple question: "Can i afford to spend $8-10,000 on having a shop do this swap?" .... if the answser is no, then stick with a B... OR, if you can get close, and can do the fab work and install yourself, just like anything else out there, you'll save a LOT of money, and maybe bring it within the budget... but this is assuming you have the tools and fabrication abilities already.
Oh, and for your rusty wagon? Well, it can always be sandblasted... lol. But seriously, I don't know if i would progress with as much work as this swap is with a car that is questionable. But, if you DID do a restoration with it, you'd HAVE to paint it red, and call it the 'Little Red Wagon'... yea, i know, not original, but funny
MrWagovan: Well, see here is the thing.... what are you going to spend on a B swap? Maybe $3000 roughly, depending on engine chosen, ECU bought, and parts replaced, and mounts used, and whether you use an adapter harness or make your own, etc...
Ok, so then add a turbo kit to that. Well, let me rephrase that.. a RELIABLE turbo kit.... none of this SSAC crap, and no FMU's... i mean Hondata, Neptune, or AEM. I also mean a nice reliable turbo, not a $100 piece of shit from eBay. Also, a good intercooler, good oil lines, good piping and couplers. I mean RELIABLE... not a HMT setup. You're going to have almost $4k in that setup after the utbro, wastegate, good manifold, good intercooler, etc...
Now, do a little bit of work to the enigne to make sure it can handle some power... maybe thicker gasket, arp head studs, new oil pump, good oil, etc.
By the time you get this entire thing swapped into your WagoVan, you WILL have come right into the realm of a K20 swap.
NOW.... before you say 'yea, but i'll have xxx power'... that swap price above was assuming a 1st Gen B16... ok, its ringlands and rods/pistons are good for MAYBE 350whp, but more likely, around 300whp.... OH, but i menat reliable... ok, so to last 100,000 miles, it'd have to have MAYBE 250whp or less, and the oil changed a lot.
Now... answer me TRUTHFULLY... which would you rather have for $7000... a 250whp turbo B, or a 200whp all motor K?
Keep in mind, all motor HP means more than turbo HP. The 200whp all motor car would likely outrun the turbo car at the track. The all motor car is still STOCK, which means it'd retain its stock reliability, and last for 100,000 miles. The turbo B16 is pushing its limits, and may not last for 20,000 miles.... especially considering that it'll probably come from japan with a LOT of miles (i don't care what importers say, they are lying these days with motors that old)... so they will be used and hurt to begin with. The K's are still available with very little miles on them.
Anyway, i'm not going to argue very much the benefits of one over the other, and i know that not everyone has the money to to this swap all at once. However, there is no doubt that part-for-part, the K series is better, and worth the investment to be that much ahead of the curve (in my opinion anyway).
So... have fun with your tempermental turbo B!
Pacifier: 'spensive, but oh-so-worth it... hehe. This car pulls like nothing else i've driven, and it sounds like no other B series car... its insane... lol!
if i had the money, and an extra wagon, i'd donate just to see the outcome. i've seen the infamous ZC. B16, B18, and B20, all clean looking swaps.....but a K20 would be a fresh swap. i know i'd be drooling over it. but what gets me is that there would be no room for improvement, as in there isnt much engine room left. and also that you would have to remove the whole thing to just to get the timing belt changed, take the head off, etc. but if i had the money and the extra wagon....it'd be something i'd sacrafice for the power 8)
Well, there is actually a LOT of room in the engine bay for 'improvement' items... like turbos and such. If all-motor, there is enough room for a full 4-1 header to clear (the green crx has one). The Yellow crx is getting a full turbo setup, WITH a/c. The things CAN be done... As for power improvement, well all-motor to all-motor... a K20R starts out where MOST fully-built high-strung B series motors that don't idle well, and don't last long end up!
As for the timing -chain- and pulling the head and such, it is actually so easy to get the motor out of the car, that i actually favor that option in some cases. Besides, with as little as those things need to be messed with on a fresh setup, it shouldn't really be that big of a hassle.
I guess the true arguement comes down to money and convenience.
I know these motors are at home in the newer Hondas but I wonder how they will fare in the old bodies as their maintenace points may conflict with
its donor body.
I personally find it hard pulling the motor to attempt to do work on that timing chain and I am not fond of some of the locations for accessories and so on. Although I shouldn't bitch, my freind has a S4 and he had to pull the whole front end off the car to do his timing :?: W T F :?:
I guess it would pay to see how your other projects would fare since you have greater expectations for them.
The K swaps are the way to go but they may be out of reach for some. I have already started pricing parts off ebay and other sources. Would it be worth it to Frankenstein an all motor setup for the sake of saving money?
I like the tsx k24s and the type R k20 head as a combo mos def. Plus it would be nice to see the prices come down on some of the k swap components.
Oh and I would truly have a wagon to donate but like I said its pretty rusty and droppin an $8000 K swap into it would almost be a crime. It could be your 'little red wagon' ya know, prolly like a parts fetcher with your choice of a screamin k swap in it. And I do like the term 'lil red wagon' but mine ain't on par with the 60's hemi version by a longshot :?
btw, the rusty wagon is not my everyday driver, my everyday is the one that appears in the banner above the forum (not quite as rusty )
oh and heres the parts catalog image of the shifter, it may not help but like I said it has 6 forward gear selections, 1 reverse
I am just not sure how the k shifter is gated.... :roll:
Yeah keeping in mind that Super Low first gear is hard left, then hard left and up again, so 6 forwards almost definately wont line up with the k gate... but hey, it might be easier to mod the wagon one to work, rather than paying silly ammounts of money to hasport..
Well, here is the thing to remember guys, the 'gating' is controlled at the tranny, NOT at the shifter. It could definitely be modified to work. In fact, if anyone has one they'd like to send, i'd REALLY like to look at it to see if it may be an easier alternative to extensive center console modifications like the RSX one is.
Pacifier: By the way, no money would go to Hasport relating to the shifting mechanism... they don't offer anything for it.. lol. You'd still need the mount kit 8)
It looks nice, but that's over the top for most people here on this board. And it's hard to justify putting in $7000 into a 16 year old car that in most owner's cases here are starting to rust. (not me)
To answer your question, 250whp B turbo sounds good to me..heck 250whp supercharged sounds good too.
FYI, the B swap would cost me $1100 for a complete swap including ECU, tranny, etc..not $3000. For $3 grand I better have a B16B!
With a turbo set up it may cost about $2.9k. So about $4k or so combined.
ps. Alot of people think B is overrated and in some cases it is, but there are alot of B spare parts out there that is easily accessible and it comes in cheaper than K parts.
The K swaps are the way to go but they may be out of reach for some. I have already started pricing parts off ebay and other sources.
you know if you wait a year or two..prices will probably drop. then it might make sense since parts for maintenance will also come in. you can't get K parts in the junkyard..you gotta buy that shit brand new..RETAIL.
you know you put in $7 grand in a new swap and the parts replacements, upgrades, etc..will cripple you and soon before you know it, you're heading towards $10 grand, $12 grand..and then you realise you coulda bought a new car with a warranty! :P
the K is new so everyone is out chasing the latest thing..unless you got some crazy money and alot of time on your hands..
Wagovan... i think you are underestimating the B swap cost. go ahead, do it for $1100... LoL...
n-e-way, ya know, i hate to make it sound like this, but it is obvious that you feel it is way out of your budget, and because of that, you're trying to talk it down just because you can't afford it (which is what it honestly sounds like you're trying to do).
You don't know me, and i don't know you... but don't try to feed me BS about being able to do a B swap for $1100... i won't eat that shit. I can see that you and i aren't going to get along here on this board, so i'll save you the trouble of telling me how full of crap i am for being ok with spending this sort of money on a car with this kind of swap when i could just go out and buy a Kia or something for $10k... oh, but it'd STILL be a Kia.. lol! And this'd waste IT, and most every other street car on the road with a few exceptions. See, the thing about the custom car hobby, is that it rarely ever makes sense, and it is a money loser... BUT, you'll have a kick-ass car that will be YOURS, and not just some cookie cutter car off a car lot that anyone else can go in and just buy without any thought or individuality.
Bottom line: This Green CRX just laid down 220.9hp to the wheels, and 145.9lb-ft torque with a STOCK motor, except for I/H/E... it's capable of running low 12's in the 1/4, it is capable of handling better than a LOT of street cars on the market, and the motor is capable of lasting over 100,000 miles if properly maintained.
NO B series will ever do that N/A, and it'll REALLY be tough with your $1100 swap to add a turbo that reliable that'll beat its track times and performance (like in auto-x, etc).
Anyhoo... i'm not a very argumentative person (oh, ok, who am i kidding, i am.. haha! Davens knows me enough to know i am)... but basically, i hear lines like the $1100 swap ALL THE TIME. Don't forget, i do this for a living... i get a lot of people walking through my doors telling me what they can do, and i warn them, and i usually wind up seeing the car in my shop, or others shops because of either a lack of reliability, or they couldn't figure it out.. lol!
Oh, and one last thing to make you even more upset at me:
PLEASE show me where i can get a FULL running/reliable swap IN a CRX without complications for $1100... believe me, i'll send about 3-4 cars your way to have them done.. lol!
Anyway, thanks for the ginger... i'll go back to my land of overpriced/hyped swaps that make no sense. Sorry i couldn't have been any more help to you!
Anyway, thanks for the ginger... i'll go back to my land of overpriced/hyped swaps that make no sense. Sorry i couldn't have been any more help to you!
I dunno John, I'm not impressed..anyone with money can put whatever engine they want in any car they want. With money, there is little in way of limitations...but again it's not your money going into it is it? It's your customer's.
Listen, don't be sorry..you showed me some cool photos of your customer's car and like I said what you did was neat..but out of reach for many folks on this board. I just stated that a B with turbo would do the job for less and then you have to get all overly sensitive like a woman and start ranting.
You don't even have a wagon and you come up in here..the last time I checked this board was called HONDACIVICWAGON.COM..this isn't a CRX board. Maybe you should also learn how to read.
IMHO, putting in $8-10,000 into a 15-16yr old car that is more than likely to have frame/body rust issues is a waste of good money..you probably didn't go to college so your likely to have little to no concept of this either.
n-e-way, ya know, i hate to make it sound like this, but it is obvious that you feel it is way out of your budget, and because of that, you're trying to talk it down just because you can't afford it (which is what it honestly sounds like you're trying to do).
Hahahah! No, that isn't the case. It might seem like this to you, but I drive a wagon for fun. It's my current second car and my 9th car in the past 10 yrs. Listen John, I come here to chill and now I gotta deal with your mad ass. Go back to your H-tech because that's all they do there..talk trash to each other.
(Before my wagon, I had a bitchass Cadillac that ran like a cabin cruiser. Some lowlife monkey stole it and he got arrested by highway patrol within 48hrs. The judge found some other charges on him like identity fraud and put him down for 6 months in county. That didn't help my car situation tho because I either had to deal with getting my Caddy fixed or sell it..I chose to sell it because it didnt' make sense to get it right. The insurance paid it off and I filed a personal wage garnish against the monkey which the judge authorized..so if he ever decides to get a real job..I'll get $.)
I've been making money on my own since I was 8 yrs old. Put myself through school..I own a BMW and I've owned several BMW's, Mercedes, Toyotas in the past. This Honda project is just for fun..kind of like a hobby because I don't smoke or drink. I also like working on cars for fun..it's good to know how to fix your own car.
In the whole scheme of things, it's trivial..there's no comparison driving a BMW over a Honda..I could talk about how great BMW is all day..BMW is a machine..double vanos..V8..400hp stock..etc..but that's not what I do here.
I don't want to put myself over into another league..I like the guys on this board..I like how they improvise things just to make it work..To me that's special..I'm just like everyone else here.
But yet, I could be posting at some german car fan club..but to me that's boring. There's no art in dropping another $30 grand in mods in a car that already cost me $85 grand. (I'll just buy myself a Brabus Mercedes next time if that's the case and it'd be tuned by a professional with best of breed parts)
I've grown to like Hondas and wagons in particular. So to respond, if I wanted to, ya I could put a K series into a damn golf cart.
ComposiMo, you made alot of very good points about engine reliability and factored in most things that other people don't seem to think about. Overall i'm super impressed with the car and i love the fact that you have personally taken time to tell us about it.
MrWagovan, i don't think he was saying what he said to make a personal jab at you, what he said about reliability etc really is true (been there, done that.. 12 second GTiR pulsar... crapped every part, everyday.. they weren't built to do 12's) and he had to step on some toes to get that out in the open.
yes, www.hondacivicwagon.com is a home for Honda Civic Wagons, HOWEVER, if someone else has valid input into our discussions then i openly welcome them make their post.
I just pointed out that it was over the budgets of most folks here..and I sugguested the job could be done with a B swap for less. I even commented that I thought his swap was nice and all too.
But nooo..he went chicken hearted on me and stated that he thought I was bad mouthing his swap because the dude doesn't think I can afford it and then sez that I'm bullshitting him with a $1100 swap.
+ mounts (500+)
+ labour (3500+)
+ turbo, intercooler, piping, blow off valve (ahh i love that name...) (2000+)
+ fluids (150+)
+ cambelt, tensioner, water pump, oil pump (don't tell me your not doing them because thats just silly) (600+)
And i don't just mean the cheapest damn part you can find... i mean quality. Look... we just ran into $7810 and its going to last you three months at the most, and that price doesn't include anything unforseen... (i.e. standard b-series internals screaming STOP! I WASN'T DESIGNED FOR A TURBO!!)
Sorry mate, this is a discussion forum and its fine to argue - if you can't have a discussion without worrying about who you are going to offend, why have a discussion? I'm not meaning to step on anyones toes at all but i think the picture just needed to be brought into focus..
Look, lets leave it at you both misunderstanding each other... simple misunderstanding, they happen everyday to people like us...
Both of you make very valid points, but i still think the K works out to be a far more reliable swap, at around or just over the cost of a standard b-series with a turbo (which will last about 10,000 miles, compared to 100,000+)
So... 8000 for 10,000miles OR..
10000 for 100,000miles... your pick.
I seriously hate arguments and i don't want either of you to think that i am picking holes in what you are saying, i'm just trying to be the mediator and put things into perspective for both of you.
CRX or not, its valid here because most CRX work is transferrable to the wagon.
And this is a discussion forum. Having different and sometimes conflicting points of view is what makes it interesting. As long as we make it a point to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks...argue until you're blue in the face, or uh, fingers...whatever.
As with just about anything, the middle ground makes the most sense.
While I have a hard time justifying an $8K grand K-swap on a car worth 25% of that, it does appear to be best platform to make serious power. +200hp in stock trim? Impressive. But really not for the average DIYer.
Arguing that a B-swap will get you the same performance for less...well, not a B16a, not stock, most likely not even naturally aspirated and certainly not for anything less than $3k. (And that's doing your own work)
For the middle ground I was talking about...I'm thinking B18c5. Half the price of the K-swap, easier to install, getting closer in power while maintaining stock like reliability.
Or the new Hasport H-swap kit...making the H-series a little more realistic for the shadetree mechanic. While the kit is expensive, the engines are quite a bit cheaper than the upper end B-series.
Let's face it...there are more swaps options out there than gun nuts running the NRA. While one swap may be more personally preferable over another, that doesn't mean either one is a "bad" choice.
Well said, personal preference does have a big factor. I mean hey... honestly... we're doing up civic wagons!! It MUST be for personal preference, people sure don't horde over them like the hatches...
You're right, it IS my customers car, and i don't have my personal money in it... but i do in one that begain a couple of days ago now that this one is out of the way.
And that swap for $1100??? Hahahaa!! go ahead and buy, it, and put it in your car whilst spending NOTHING more than the $1100 you spent buying it. Please.
Also, yea, you're right, i don't own a wagovan... sorry i came on here and posted this ridiculous crap for overhyped /priced swaps that YOU say no one on this board can really afford... Oh, wait, i DIDN'T start this thread, did i?
But nooo..he went chicken hearted on me and stated that he thought I was bad mouthing his swap because the dude doesn't think I can afford it and then sez that I'm bullshitting him with a $1100 swap.
chicken hearted? Well, you obviously don't know me, thats for sure. Wanna see how non-chicken-hearted i am? Why not hop in your $85k beeeeemer, and come on over to my shop and we'll see how chickenhearted i am. Also, you can point out to me EXACTLY what meds you're on to think that you can have that swap into your car and running reliably for $1100 (or anywhere near it).
anyone with money can put whatever engine they want in any car they want. With money, there is little in way of limitations...but again it's not your money going into it is it? It's your customer's.
Apparnently i didn't explain to you how that yellow CRX in the last post with pics in it is my car, and is undergoing a full restoration of the chassis on its way to being a fully built and turbo'd K series.... lol.
You don't even have a wagon and you come up in here..the last time I checked this board was called HONDACIVICWAGON.COM..this isn't a CRX board. Maybe you should also learn how to read.
FINE... you don't want me here, thats EASY! I don't have to click the shortcut to come here... however, maybe YOU should read where i didn't just "come on here" to post pretty pictures... i didn't even start this post dude!
Sorry this turned into this guys... i certainly didn't intend it to. This is the only board on the internet that had anything negative to say about this swap, and it sorta caught me offguard, so yea, maybe i did overreact a tad bit.
I'm REALLY sorry that this guy apparently looks down so low on everyone here to assume that "none of you guys can come close to affording this swap, so why even talk about it at all?" I think differently, but what do i know? I don't own a Wagovan, so apparnetly i know nothing.
Okay...apparently we're not getting anywhere. This topic has run its course.
agreed, I wasn't aware this thread had gone ended this way, thank you davens I appeciate the catch on this one and I apologize for adding my $.02 after the fact but I want to clarify some points and I will return the lock as you have deemed.
I asked ComposiMo if I could post this info here for the wagon members.
He decided to come here and offer his insight on his work. This is his work he has the right, he was a guest.
I knew ahead of time that it may cause some controversy.
I believe its pricey as well, both of you make good points.
No swap in truth is cheap, thats truth.
A K swap will cost more than a B swap but so would a H swap,
no question.
It comes down to preference and money. The truth is B is a dead motor, F and H , so is the ZC and the D series. All dead. There will be a finite supply of these motors. K motors are out there now, its the conversion thats the bitch and its price.
ComposiMo, thank you for posting the info and updates. I applaud your shop and your work. the K swap as you have detailed it has already helped some here in understanding the basics of the install. Thats all I ever wanted to do, was to expose my board to the possibility. I know you didn't have to come here but you chose to, again thank you.
MrWagovan has only said what I personally was not ready to admit, its expensive. I personally have a hard time justifying the money. I don't think anyone here may tackle this right away but at the same time I do not underestimate any of these wagon owners as they are constantly showing me new things everyday.
MrWagovan is a very resourceful guy who is very competent and I will not take anything from him just because he doesn't own a shop. I will not disclude his feelings on this - So he spoke the truth, he has the right.
As far as the dialogue that followed yes it got bad. There are valid points on both sides regarding the swap. It didn't need to get ugly.
The whole reason this board exists is for the wagon owner, please everyone keep this in mind. I want us to do what no one else has. It doesn't mean a crx guy can't come on here, dsm guy, ford guy ect.
Everyone is invited.
All I ask is that we all be cordial, seriously.
This topic could have went somewhere and its disappointing it ended this way but we will move on.
Comments
The car is now done, the owner is extremely happy, and now we'll meet it and its owner for the alignment and tuning this week, and depending on the owners schedule, possibly even track time!
And thats all for now folks! Keep an eye out for our next two K series swaps
I commend you and your shop for the impecable work you've put into that car. Wanna hear sometin crazy? I actually thought that the crx was your shop-car :shock: Thats why I thought you put such attention to detail into it, great job :!:
If I can ask how much did you charge your customer for this swap?
In case some members here are interested... :roll:
I may have a wagon to donate to the cause, but its pretty rusty :x
Both of the next two "swaps" are actually complete restorations... the chassis is being taken down to nothing, sandblasted, and brought back with all new seals, suspension, bushings, etc... Yea, i'm not asking for TOO much work or anything... haha! Thankfully i have help in the shop these days.
As for cost? well, that is a really tough thing to say... with a swap like this, it can vary greatly depending on how far you want to go, and how many corners you want cut. i.e. a polite way of me saying "each one is different, and i won't tell exactly what this one cost to do"... Haha!
But realistically, with what i've experienced with this swap, you may as well ask yourself a simple question: "Can i afford to spend $8-10,000 on having a shop do this swap?" .... if the answser is no, then stick with a B... OR, if you can get close, and can do the fab work and install yourself, just like anything else out there, you'll save a LOT of money, and maybe bring it within the budget... but this is assuming you have the tools and fabrication abilities already.
Oh, and for your rusty wagon? Well, it can always be sandblasted... lol. But seriously, I don't know if i would progress with as much work as this swap is with a car that is questionable. But, if you DID do a restoration with it, you'd HAVE to paint it red, and call it the 'Little Red Wagon'... yea, i know, not original, but funny
8-10K..that's a hard call. :roll:
i think i'll go B and boost it w/a garrett..that'll give me about the same result for/less $.
lol
Hopefully supercharging the zc should keep me interested for a year, then comes the B20B block + B16A2 head + 4WD..
Ok, so then add a turbo kit to that. Well, let me rephrase that.. a RELIABLE turbo kit.... none of this SSAC crap, and no FMU's... i mean Hondata, Neptune, or AEM. I also mean a nice reliable turbo, not a $100 piece of shit from eBay. Also, a good intercooler, good oil lines, good piping and couplers. I mean RELIABLE... not a HMT setup. You're going to have almost $4k in that setup after the utbro, wastegate, good manifold, good intercooler, etc...
Now, do a little bit of work to the enigne to make sure it can handle some power... maybe thicker gasket, arp head studs, new oil pump, good oil, etc.
By the time you get this entire thing swapped into your WagoVan, you WILL have come right into the realm of a K20 swap.
NOW.... before you say 'yea, but i'll have xxx power'... that swap price above was assuming a 1st Gen B16... ok, its ringlands and rods/pistons are good for MAYBE 350whp, but more likely, around 300whp.... OH, but i menat reliable... ok, so to last 100,000 miles, it'd have to have MAYBE 250whp or less, and the oil changed a lot.
Now... answer me TRUTHFULLY... which would you rather have for $7000... a 250whp turbo B, or a 200whp all motor K?
Keep in mind, all motor HP means more than turbo HP. The 200whp all motor car would likely outrun the turbo car at the track. The all motor car is still STOCK, which means it'd retain its stock reliability, and last for 100,000 miles. The turbo B16 is pushing its limits, and may not last for 20,000 miles.... especially considering that it'll probably come from japan with a LOT of miles (i don't care what importers say, they are lying these days with motors that old)... so they will be used and hurt to begin with. The K's are still available with very little miles on them.
Anyway, i'm not going to argue very much the benefits of one over the other, and i know that not everyone has the money to to this swap all at once. However, there is no doubt that part-for-part, the K series is better, and worth the investment to be that much ahead of the curve (in my opinion anyway).
So... have fun with your tempermental turbo B!
Pacifier: 'spensive, but oh-so-worth it... hehe. This car pulls like nothing else i've driven, and it sounds like no other B series car... its insane... lol!
if i had the money, and an extra wagon, i'd donate just to see the outcome. i've seen the infamous ZC. B16, B18, and B20, all clean looking swaps.....but a K20 would be a fresh swap. i know i'd be drooling over it. but what gets me is that there would be no room for improvement, as in there isnt much engine room left. and also that you would have to remove the whole thing to just to get the timing belt changed, take the head off, etc. but if i had the money and the extra wagon....it'd be something i'd sacrafice for the power 8)
As for the timing -chain- and pulling the head and such, it is actually so easy to get the motor out of the car, that i actually favor that option in some cases. Besides, with as little as those things need to be messed with on a fresh setup, it shouldn't really be that big of a hassle.
And yea, it IS a good argument, isn't it? 8)
I know these motors are at home in the newer Hondas but I wonder how they will fare in the old bodies as their maintenace points may conflict with
its donor body.
I personally find it hard pulling the motor to attempt to do work on that timing chain and I am not fond of some of the locations for accessories and so on. Although I shouldn't bitch, my freind has a S4 and he had to pull the whole front end off the car to do his timing :?: W T F :?:
I guess it would pay to see how your other projects would fare since you have greater expectations for them.
The K swaps are the way to go but they may be out of reach for some. I have already started pricing parts off ebay and other sources. Would it be worth it to Frankenstein an all motor setup for the sake of saving money?
I like the tsx k24s and the type R k20 head as a combo mos def. Plus it would be nice to see the prices come down on some of the k swap components.
Oh and I would truly have a wagon to donate but like I said its pretty rusty and droppin an $8000 K swap into it would almost be a crime. It could be your 'little red wagon' ya know, prolly like a parts fetcher with your choice of a screamin k swap in it. And I do like the term 'lil red wagon' but mine ain't on par with the 60's hemi version by a longshot :?
btw, the rusty wagon is not my everyday driver, my everyday is the one that appears in the banner above the forum (not quite as rusty
oh and heres the parts catalog image of the shifter, it may not help but like I said it has 6 forward gear selections, 1 reverse
I am just not sure how the k shifter is gated.... :roll:
Pacifier: By the way, no money would go to Hasport relating to the shifting mechanism... they don't offer anything for it.. lol. You'd still need the mount kit 8)
$7000 is another car..not an engine. but there's always someone crazy enough with some extra time and money to do it.
unless I had my own shop to do something like that, and someone who's done it before, it would take awhile to complete.
parts, welding, wiring, time spent + going above $budget = serious aggravation.
It looks nice, but that's over the top for most people here on this board. And it's hard to justify putting in $7000 into a 16 year old car that in most owner's cases here are starting to rust. (not me)
To answer your question, 250whp B turbo sounds good to me..heck 250whp supercharged sounds good too.
FYI, the B swap would cost me $1100 for a complete swap including ECU, tranny, etc..not $3000. For $3 grand I better have a B16B!
With a turbo set up it may cost about $2.9k. So about $4k or so combined.
ps. Alot of people think B is overrated and in some cases it is, but there are alot of B spare parts out there that is easily accessible and it comes in cheaper than K parts.
you know if you wait a year or two..prices will probably drop. then it might make sense since parts for maintenance will also come in. you can't get K parts in the junkyard..you gotta buy that shit brand new..RETAIL.
you know you put in $7 grand in a new swap and the parts replacements, upgrades, etc..will cripple you and soon before you know it, you're heading towards $10 grand, $12 grand..and then you realise you coulda bought a new car with a warranty! :P
the K is new so everyone is out chasing the latest thing..unless you got some crazy money and alot of time on your hands..
n-e-way, ya know, i hate to make it sound like this, but it is obvious that you feel it is way out of your budget, and because of that, you're trying to talk it down just because you can't afford it (which is what it honestly sounds like you're trying to do).
You don't know me, and i don't know you... but don't try to feed me BS about being able to do a B swap for $1100... i won't eat that shit. I can see that you and i aren't going to get along here on this board, so i'll save you the trouble of telling me how full of crap i am for being ok with spending this sort of money on a car with this kind of swap when i could just go out and buy a Kia or something for $10k... oh, but it'd STILL be a Kia.. lol! And this'd waste IT, and most every other street car on the road with a few exceptions. See, the thing about the custom car hobby, is that it rarely ever makes sense, and it is a money loser... BUT, you'll have a kick-ass car that will be YOURS, and not just some cookie cutter car off a car lot that anyone else can go in and just buy without any thought or individuality.
Bottom line: This Green CRX just laid down 220.9hp to the wheels, and 145.9lb-ft torque with a STOCK motor, except for I/H/E... it's capable of running low 12's in the 1/4, it is capable of handling better than a LOT of street cars on the market, and the motor is capable of lasting over 100,000 miles if properly maintained.
NO B series will ever do that N/A, and it'll REALLY be tough with your $1100 swap to add a turbo that reliable that'll beat its track times and performance (like in auto-x, etc).
Anyhoo... i'm not a very argumentative person (oh, ok, who am i kidding, i am.. haha! Davens knows me enough to know i am)... but basically, i hear lines like the $1100 swap ALL THE TIME. Don't forget, i do this for a living... i get a lot of people walking through my doors telling me what they can do, and i warn them, and i usually wind up seeing the car in my shop, or others shops because of either a lack of reliability, or they couldn't figure it out.. lol!
Oh, and one last thing to make you even more upset at me:
PLEASE show me where i can get a FULL running/reliable swap IN a CRX without complications for $1100... believe me, i'll send about 3-4 cars your way to have them done.. lol!
Anyway, thanks for the ginger... i'll go back to my land of overpriced/hyped swaps that make no sense. Sorry i couldn't have been any more help to you!
I dunno John, I'm not impressed..anyone with money can put whatever engine they want in any car they want. With money, there is little in way of limitations...but again it's not your money going into it is it? It's your customer's.
Listen, don't be sorry..you showed me some cool photos of your customer's car and like I said what you did was neat..but out of reach for many folks on this board. I just stated that a B with turbo would do the job for less and then you have to get all overly sensitive like a woman and start ranting.
You don't even have a wagon and you come up in here..the last time I checked this board was called HONDACIVICWAGON.COM..this isn't a CRX board. Maybe you should also learn how to read.
IMHO, putting in $8-10,000 into a 15-16yr old car that is more than likely to have frame/body rust issues is a waste of good money..you probably didn't go to college so your likely to have little to no concept of this either.
Hahahah! No, that isn't the case. It might seem like this to you, but I drive a wagon for fun. It's my current second car and my 9th car in the past 10 yrs. Listen John, I come here to chill and now I gotta deal with your mad ass. Go back to your H-tech because that's all they do there..talk trash to each other.
(Before my wagon, I had a bitchass Cadillac that ran like a cabin cruiser. Some lowlife monkey stole it and he got arrested by highway patrol within 48hrs. The judge found some other charges on him like identity fraud and put him down for 6 months in county. That didn't help my car situation tho because I either had to deal with getting my Caddy fixed or sell it..I chose to sell it because it didnt' make sense to get it right. The insurance paid it off and I filed a personal wage garnish against the monkey which the judge authorized..so if he ever decides to get a real job..I'll get $.)
I've been making money on my own since I was 8 yrs old. Put myself through school..I own a BMW and I've owned several BMW's, Mercedes, Toyotas in the past. This Honda project is just for fun..kind of like a hobby because I don't smoke or drink. I also like working on cars for fun..it's good to know how to fix your own car.
In the whole scheme of things, it's trivial..there's no comparison driving a BMW over a Honda..I could talk about how great BMW is all day..BMW is a machine..double vanos..V8..400hp stock..etc..but that's not what I do here.
I don't want to put myself over into another league..I like the guys on this board..I like how they improvise things just to make it work..To me that's special..I'm just like everyone else here.
But yet, I could be posting at some german car fan club..but to me that's boring. There's no art in dropping another $30 grand in mods in a car that already cost me $85 grand. (I'll just buy myself a Brabus Mercedes next time if that's the case and it'd be tuned by a professional with best of breed parts)
I've grown to like Hondas and wagons in particular. So to respond, if I wanted to, ya I could put a K series into a damn golf cart.
And as for the B series for $1100.
-Transmission
-Complete Block
- Intake Manifold
- Complete Head
- Engine Wiring Harness
- Sensors
- Exhaust Manifold
- Fuel Rail
- Injectors
- Distributor
- Throttle Body
- Alternator
- Starter
- Ignition Wires
- A/C Compressor
- Power Steering Pump
- Intermediate Shaft
- Factory Mounts
and free shipping to my door..and 1 yr warranty.
ps. say Hi to Jeb Bush for me ya hear?
ComposiMo, you made alot of very good points about engine reliability and factored in most things that other people don't seem to think about. Overall i'm super impressed with the car and i love the fact that you have personally taken time to tell us about it.
MrWagovan, i don't think he was saying what he said to make a personal jab at you, what he said about reliability etc really is true (been there, done that.. 12 second GTiR pulsar... crapped every part, everyday.. they weren't built to do 12's) and he had to step on some toes to get that out in the open.
yes, www.hondacivicwagon.com is a home for Honda Civic Wagons, HOWEVER, if someone else has valid input into our discussions then i openly welcome them make their post.
OK, so thats my bit as the 'Pacifier'.... :shock:
Now hang on... i think your not taking this into perspective... maybe have a lil think and then post tomorrow mate?
I was not questioning the swap reliability issue.
I just pointed out that it was over the budgets of most folks here..and I sugguested the job could be done with a B swap for less. I even commented that I thought his swap was nice and all too.
But nooo..he went chicken hearted on me and stated that he thought I was bad mouthing his swap because the dude doesn't think I can afford it and then sez that I'm bullshitting him with a $1100 swap.
+ mounts (500+)
+ labour (3500+)
+ turbo, intercooler, piping, blow off valve (ahh i love that name...) (2000+)
+ fluids (150+)
+ cambelt, tensioner, water pump, oil pump (don't tell me your not doing them because thats just silly) (600+)
And i don't just mean the cheapest damn part you can find... i mean quality. Look... we just ran into $7810 and its going to last you three months at the most, and that price doesn't include anything unforseen... (i.e. standard b-series internals screaming STOP! I WASN'T DESIGNED FOR A TURBO!!)
Sorry mate, this is a discussion forum and its fine to argue - if you can't have a discussion without worrying about who you are going to offend, why have a discussion? I'm not meaning to step on anyones toes at all but i think the picture just needed to be brought into focus..
Both of you make very valid points, but i still think the K works out to be a far more reliable swap, at around or just over the cost of a standard b-series with a turbo (which will last about 10,000 miles, compared to 100,000+)
So... 8000 for 10,000miles OR..
10000 for 100,000miles... your pick.
I seriously hate arguments and i don't want either of you to think that i am picking holes in what you are saying, i'm just trying to be the mediator and put things into perspective for both of you.
And this is a discussion forum. Having different and sometimes conflicting points of view is what makes it interesting. As long as we make it a point to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks...argue until you're blue in the face, or uh, fingers...whatever.
As with just about anything, the middle ground makes the most sense.
While I have a hard time justifying an $8K grand K-swap on a car worth 25% of that, it does appear to be best platform to make serious power. +200hp in stock trim? Impressive. But really not for the average DIYer.
Arguing that a B-swap will get you the same performance for less...well, not a B16a, not stock, most likely not even naturally aspirated and certainly not for anything less than $3k. (And that's doing your own work)
For the middle ground I was talking about...I'm thinking B18c5. Half the price of the K-swap, easier to install, getting closer in power while maintaining stock like reliability.
Or the new Hasport H-swap kit...making the H-series a little more realistic for the shadetree mechanic. While the kit is expensive, the engines are quite a bit cheaper than the upper end B-series.
Let's face it...there are more swaps options out there than gun nuts running the NRA. While one swap may be more personally preferable over another, that doesn't mean either one is a "bad" choice.
And that swap for $1100??? Hahahaa!! go ahead and buy, it, and put it in your car whilst spending NOTHING more than the $1100 you spent buying it. Please.
Also, yea, you're right, i don't own a wagovan... sorry i came on here and posted this ridiculous crap for overhyped /priced swaps that YOU say no one on this board can really afford... Oh, wait, i DIDN'T start this thread, did i?
Apparnently i didn't explain to you how that yellow CRX in the last post with pics in it is my car, and is undergoing a full restoration of the chassis on its way to being a fully built and turbo'd K series.... lol.
FINE... you don't want me here, thats EASY! I don't have to click the shortcut to come here... however, maybe YOU should read where i didn't just "come on here" to post pretty pictures... i didn't even start this post dude!
Sorry this turned into this guys... i certainly didn't intend it to. This is the only board on the internet that had anything negative to say about this swap, and it sorta caught me offguard, so yea, maybe i did overreact a tad bit.
I'm REALLY sorry that this guy apparently looks down so low on everyone here to assume that "none of you guys can come close to affording this swap, so why even talk about it at all?" I think differently, but what do i know? I don't own a Wagovan, so apparnetly i know nothing.
l8r!
I asked ComposiMo if I could post this info here for the wagon members.
He decided to come here and offer his insight on his work. This is his work he has the right, he was a guest.
I knew ahead of time that it may cause some controversy.
I believe its pricey as well, both of you make good points.
No swap in truth is cheap, thats truth.
A K swap will cost more than a B swap but so would a H swap,
no question.
It comes down to preference and money. The truth is B is a dead motor, F and H , so is the ZC and the D series. All dead. There will be a finite supply of these motors. K motors are out there now, its the conversion thats the bitch and its price.
ComposiMo, thank you for posting the info and updates. I applaud your shop and your work. the K swap as you have detailed it has already helped some here in understanding the basics of the install. Thats all I ever wanted to do, was to expose my board to the possibility. I know you didn't have to come here but you chose to, again thank you.
MrWagovan has only said what I personally was not ready to admit, its expensive. I personally have a hard time justifying the money. I don't think anyone here may tackle this right away but at the same time I do not underestimate any of these wagon owners as they are constantly showing me new things everyday.
MrWagovan is a very resourceful guy who is very competent and I will not take anything from him just because he doesn't own a shop. I will not disclude his feelings on this - So he spoke the truth, he has the right.
As far as the dialogue that followed yes it got bad. There are valid points on both sides regarding the swap. It didn't need to get ugly.
The whole reason this board exists is for the wagon owner, please everyone keep this in mind. I want us to do what no one else has. It doesn't mean a crx guy can't come on here, dsm guy, ford guy ect.
Everyone is invited.
All I ask is that we all be cordial, seriously.
This topic could have went somewhere and its disappointing it ended this way but we will move on.