E85 and Our wagon's

afidarksideafidarkside Wagonist
in Electronics, Fueling & Air Conditioning
As the price of gas continues to climb, I've heard a lot of e85, but the only information I can come up with (on google, ht, hcw) is that fuel consumption is increased by 30-40% and power is lost, and that e85 eats up rubber. Well, for either I don't care, the cheapest e85 station here (wisconsin) is ~3$/gal. I drive a lot and if it means to burn cleaner and to save $1 per gallon, it may just be worth it.

I wanted to know if anyone on here is using e85 just in their stock honda d15/16. For those that do (if any), please post any information or modifications required to do this.

I dont need to go fast, I just want to have a cleaner burning vehicle to contribute to the solution and not the problem that gasoline brings.

Comments

  • NZ-DB8RNZ-DB8R Moderator
    You have to take into consideration that you may need to upgrade injectors since they will be working a lot harder to send more fuel in.
  • afidarksideafidarkside Wagonist
    yes, I am aware of bigger injectors, pump, and also fuel rail to compensate for the loss of fuel. and of course a good tune but just wondering if anyone has tried or is in the market to try? Maybe i'll be the first :-)
  • chorne1787chorne1787 Band Wagon
    it burns faster therefore the price is not worth the mileage lose unless your just wanting to run cleaner
  • 503Wagon503Wagon moderator
    You don't lose that much mpg...my buddy runs E85 on his boosted integra (ran it before turbo as well) he only lost ~2mpg before turbo and after turbo he actually gained ~4moh (assuming you stay out if boost for daily driving)
  • woodiwoodi Wagonist
    I didn't look up exact numbers to go off of but based on your statement if it's 30-40% less powerful (efficient) but only 25% cheaper you are looking at actually spending more on fuel that's potentially going to damage your car since you have to burn much more.
  • 503Wagon503Wagon moderator
    How does E85 damage anything? Bigger pump, bigger injectors. And tune for the different fuel...nothing to damage.
  • CharbCharb Administrator
    E85 is the devil

    You might as well kick puppies...
  • 503Wagon503Wagon moderator
    Charb1618 wrote:
    E85 is the devil

    You might as well kick puppies...

    How about some info to back up your haterade!?!? You can't just come in the ring cuz you think you can box.... :)
  • woodiwoodi Wagonist
    Your assuming that everyone who is going to run E85 is gonna invest the money to do those things... I highly doubt it... So if you are running your fuel pump and injectors harder you are looking at potential wear and tear on those components... Also lots of people mention potential problems with rubber hoses...I dunno if this is a valid concern or not but another place for potential wear. In my personal opinion E85 is a bullshit fuel that only is reaching prime time because politicians want to make it look like they are doing something good for the environment. If you look at the whole life cycle of ethanol production you are typically actually using more energy to produce it (usually from fossil fuels) than a comparable amount of gasoline...

    But what the heck give it a try and let us know how your fuel economy compares. Wikipedia says it most likely drop 30% for all pre 2002 vehicles.... This is ofcourse assuming stock components and stock tune not designing and tuning the engine to run E85

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
  • 503Wagon503Wagon moderator
    If someone just dumps E85 in their tank and decides to drive I'm pretty sure it won't work. E85 is thicker than regular fuel. It's also a higher octane, thus more power (that's why some turbo guys run it)

    Pretty sure it won't really benefit you on a stock motor. But a modified one it definitely gives power gains when you do the right modifications to properly run the fuel.
  • woodiwoodi Wagonist
    I was just reading the wiki article and I think this section is worth quoting based on what you are talking about in performance engines...
    E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests." [6]

    Examples of this mis-citation can be found at the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association titled "E85 Facts"[7] which cites a range of 100-105, and a document at the Texas State Energy Conservation Office titled "Ethanol"[8], which cites a 113 rating.

    One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy, as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than for gasoline. Some vehicles can actually be converted to use E85 despite not being specifically built for it. Because of the lower heating value E85 has a cooler intake charge—which, coupled with its high stability level from its high octane rating—has also been used as a "power adder" in turbocharged performance vehicles. These modifications have not only resulted in lower GHG emissions, but also resulted in 10-12% horsepower and torque increase at the wheels. Because of its low price (less than $2.00/gal in some places) and high availability in certain areas people have started to turn to using it in place of high-end racing fuels, which typically cost over $10.00/gal.
  • afidarksideafidarkside Wagonist
    well, another reason i was thinking of running e85 (from what i hear) is that the emissions are much less. That would be nice because I am moving back to california, the land of the evil "SMOG CHECK." So it would be nice to be able to pass in flying colors. Does anyone have any information to back this?

    Yeah ive also heard about the alcohol deteriorating rubber hoses and such, and from some i hear that it shouldnt. So not sure, but bigger injectors, faster pump, and maybe a bigger rail and a tune and i should be good to go. The alcohol should act as a cleanse for the engine at all times which would be nice for consistant MPG's.

    I guess the whole reason id like to try it is for "treehugging" reasons. HAHA
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    Here's my quote from:Fuel Saving Mods?
    SiWagon wrote:
    : :cry: I'd be careful about going to E85.Vehicles NOT designed for alcohol can ONLY take about 10% alcohol.Beyond that point it starts to eat anything rubber.Look what happen in Brazil when they went alcohol.Within I think 4 years all their vehicles died due to rubber disintegration even NEW cars.Our days maybe numbered anyway.New Federal mandates states we goto more alcohol mixed fuels over the coming years.I believe upto 20% alcohol.We should be doing off shore drilling or converting to natural gas.
    The other problem is water.Just a few drops( :twisted: Yes a few drops ) can cause the gas & alcohol to seperate.If you store your vehicle for a extended time even the current gas will eat your fuel pump.I stored my Fiero for less than a year.The current gas ate my new fuel pump. :cry: If you want to learn more read one of the recent Popular Mechanics or Popular Science on this subject.Sorry can't remember which month .It was in the Auto section.Maybe it's a EPA ,Corn lobbyist ,Car manufactures plot to get all of us to buy NEW cars.
    The other reason E85 is cheaper is it gets less gas mileage.

    Political statement:We CAN NOT use corn as a fuel.It competes with food production.The Corn they grow for fuel is different from the corn we eat.It taste bad.They grow less eating corn and other crops 'cuz the gov subsidies pay more.Remember the Mexican Mom's tortilla revolt.Even our food prices went up for this reason.It was covered up by the bad economy .

    As far as this current gas spike.The answer is easy.All Obama has to do is sign in a Executive Order that all New federal vehicles purchases from this point on must be CNG.THe USA has more natural gas than we know what to do with.Did you know that when oil is pump out of the ground that that escaping natural gas is pumped back into the ground.

    Not worth switching 'cuz it's a wash.You pay 25% less for gas ,BUT you LOSE 25% in mileage and your engine from all the rubber melting away.
    I think Obama did sign something that requires future GOV. vehicles to be multi-fueled.
  • 503Wagon503Wagon moderator
    afidarkside wrote:
    well, another reason i was thinking of running e85 (from what i hear) is that the emissions are much less. That would be nice because I am moving back to california, the land of the evil "SMOG CHECK." So it would be nice to be able to pass in flying colors. Does anyone have any information to back this?

    Yeah ive also heard about the alcohol deteriorating rubber hoses and such, and from some i hear that it shouldnt. So not sure, but bigger injectors, faster pump, and maybe a bigger rail and a tune and i should be good to go. The alcohol should act as a cleanse for the engine at all times which would be nice for consistant MPG's.

    I guess the whole reason id like to try it is for "treehugging" reasons. HAHA

    You know how many E85 pumps are down in Cali? Cuz my buddy hadto bring 20gallons of E85 when we went to a show down there lol
  • afidarksideafidarkside Wagonist
    503Wagon wrote:
    afidarkside wrote:
    well, another reason i was thinking of running e85 (from what i hear) is that the emissions are much less. That would be nice because I am moving back to california, the land of the evil "SMOG CHECK." So it would be nice to be able to pass in flying colors. Does anyone have any information to back this?

    Yeah ive also heard about the alcohol deteriorating rubber hoses and such, and from some i hear that it shouldnt. So not sure, but bigger injectors, faster pump, and maybe a bigger rail and a tune and i should be good to go. The alcohol should act as a cleanse for the engine at all times which would be nice for consistant MPG's.

    I guess the whole reason id like to try it is for "treehugging" reasons. HAHA

    You know how many E85 pumps are down in Cali? Cuz my buddy hadto bring 20gallons of E85 when we went to a show down there lol


    haha yes there are, http://www.e85refueling.com/locations.p ... California

    It's a small portion but there are a lucky few in the town I will be living in so that makes things easy :-)
  • 503Wagon503Wagon moderator
    awesome! lucky you hahahaa
  • afidarksideafidarkside Wagonist
    since i got all my fact's straight, this summer I may just go thru with this. I will create a build thread or DIY for the people interested. I think i'll be swapping in an a6 with a z6 head + e85!! wish me luck!
  • driftin90driftin90 Senior Wagonist
    the only downfall I know of is if you live somewhere cold, it's a pain to start. I have to crank it over a couple of times to start it. not as bad during the summer.
  • afidarksideafidarkside Wagonist
    thats what ive heard.. is there some sort of glow plug or fuel heating element that can be adapted that you know of?
  • CrxandwagovanCrxandwagovan Wagonist
    my mechanic is going to run e85 on my wagon because he said i can get more hp and cheaper than race gas he runs it in his del sol and said there really no down side he does gets less mpg but is compensates because it is cheap he just does it for hp
  • driftin90driftin90 Senior Wagonist
    afidarkside wrote:
    thats what ive heard.. is there some sort of glow plug or fuel heating element that can be adapted that you know of?

    Not that i know of. You may want to ask vipwryann though. Once it starts, its fine. But since your from wisco, maybe tune it for gas in the winter. I didnt have a problem here in portland.
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    :Like I said E85 eats rubber.Make sure you change the rubber hose coming out of the fuel tank,the gas recirculating system hoses,the engine fuel lines ,injector o-rings & all rubber hoses off the intake manifold.Hopefully the rubber doesn't clog the injector later.

    :idea: :arrow: You're better off doing a mini-me(mpg improves & you get more power),5th gear swap & hypermiler mods like lowering,front spoiler(air dam),belly pan & removing mud flaps.

    :twisted: :arrow: If you really want to have FUN.Do a K20a3(2002+ Civic Si (RSX base )engine) swap.With the wonders of VTEC you're city mileage will go from 25 mpg to around 28 mpg & highway mileage will go from 32mpg to 33 mpg.May be 35 mpg if you do a RSX(Integra in other countries) tranny swap.The BEST part :twisted: is you're HP will jump 68hp.Super charger power w/o the blower or loss of reliability.Knocking 2-3 seconds off the stock Wgn 1/4 mile times.There is one problem...your gas mileage will probably be worst 'cuz you'll be lead footing it too much having fun. :lol:
  • afidarksideafidarkside Wagonist
    SiWagon wrote:
    :Like I said E85 eats rubber.Make sure you change the rubber hose coming out of the fuel tank,the gas recirculating system hoses,the engine fuel lines ,injector o-rings & all rubber hoses off the intake manifold.Hopefully the rubber doesn't clog the injector later.

    :idea: :arrow: You're better off doing a mini-me(mpg improves & you get more power),5th gear swap & hypermiler mods like lowering,front spoiler(air dam),belly pan & removing mud flaps.

    :twisted: :arrow: If you really want to have FUN.Do a K20a3(2002+ Civic Si (RSX base )engine) swap.With the wonders of VTEC you're city mileage will go from 25 mpg to around 28 mpg & highway mileage will go from 32mpg to 33 mpg.May be 35 mpg if you do a RSX(Integra in other countries) tranny swap.The BEST part :twisted: is you're HP will jump 68hp.Super charger power w/o the blower or loss of reliability.Knocking 2-3 seconds off the stock Wgn 1/4 mile times.There is one problem...your gas mileage will probably be worst 'cuz you'll be lead footing it too much having fun. :lol:

    thanks for all the info. I have an extra a6 motor laying around I was thinking about doing a mini me swap, I got all summer to build the motor. Since I do already have a project car the k20 swap, is kinda out of the question. Though it does sound fun though, haha. I'm looking for with the wago is mileage or economy, since its my daily. So ill know by fall which route I'll be going with fuel. I'll be sure to make a build thread if I do go to ethanol.

    These cars are really great and am so glad to own one!
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