Beef up (4WD)drivetrain

Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
in Engine & Drivetrain
so i have searched for some threads on beefin up the rt4wd drivetrain but havnt found much. is there anything i can do to the tranny and rear diff to hold up to about 350hp? im not worried about axels and driveshaft, just gears and internals. I really dont want to explode anything. let me know

if this isnt an option i might opt for just putting my built motor in something else and going back to stock. thanks
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Comments

  • ragenasianragenasian Moderator
    You haven't found much because there isn't much. Check out Jaker's thread. That is probably the best information out there at the moment. They are doing some discussion there on getting some things done to beef it up a bit.

    Oh and by the way, in your sig you spell it "LOSE," not "LOOSE," and you are missing a "with" inbetween the "one" and "the."
  • Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
    ragenasian wrote:
    You haven't found much because there isn't much. Check out Jaker's thread. That is probably the best information out there at the moment. They are doing some discussion there on getting some things done to beef it up a bit.

    Oh and by the way, in your sig you spell it "LOSE," not "LOOSE," and you are missing a "with" inbetween the "one" and "the."

    haha thanks! im glad someone pointed it out. im am very grammically handicapped
  • 3rd4ce3rd4ce Council Member
    man there are a few posts with that same question
    look @ this wagon... viewtopic.php?t=9088...

    or here ..viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7246&p=81383&hilit=rt4wd+tranny#p81383

    i just did a quick tranny search
  • Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
    3rd4ce wrote:
    man there are a few posts with that same question
    look @ this wagon... viewtopic.php?t=9088...

    or here ..viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7246&p=81383&hilit=rt4wd+tranny#p81383

    i just did a quick tranny search

    both of which i have read. bisi's is only FWD and jaker's is all custom.
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    Maybe some1 else can chime in as far as what else in the 4WD tranny can break.This is base on my experience.First question is whether the stock 2WD tranny can handle 350hp?Some1 here knows that answer.The 4WD tranny probably has the same strength parts.If so the weak point lies in the transfer drive gear.It's the 2nd to last tranny gear to the rear axle.When I bought my 4WD that was the gear that had exploded.WHether it was caused by being the weak point or not changing the oil on a regular basis I don't know?Even in stock condition the 4WD tranny has probs.While I was looking for my first wgn I saw several 4WD wgn w/bad trannies.

    This might be a good thing(the bad transfer drive gear).Rather than replacing it with a stronger gear(most likely custom made$$$$) which means something weaker would break like something inside the tranny(major work).Reason to leave it be:If it does blow.Shift out of 4WD mode.You have 2 options.Choice #2(not 2A) being the best well except for towing:
    1)Limp home with a lotta noise.
    2)Change out the transfer drive gear.The gear is easy to replace w/a minimal of tools.ADD OIL(10w-30 will do for a emergency,but switch back to Honda MTF later).
    A)Remove transfer drive gear cover.Clean out the broken pieces ,refill oil & limp home.
  • kylerwhokylerwho Wagonist
    the transfer casing itself is not the strongest either since jaker broke his when experiencing wheel hop. i should be running 350-400 awd next spring so when things start breaking i will start posting. i have some hook ups with mfactory so it is possible we can get these weak links fixed.

    i plan on eventually eliminating my viscious coupler so it will be full time 4wd.


    what is your plan to do with all that power? (auto x, rally, DD)
  • Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
    auto x and just weekend drags. so there will be some launches on it but im not guna put that kind of stress on it untill we get some shit strenghtened.
    i dont me to sound noobish but im far from it. the only thing i dont have alot of experience in is trannys, tranfer cases and diffs... so ill dig my hands into this thing and provide as much info as i can to help myself and others i guess.
  • GorillaRootzGorillaRootz Band Wagon
    From my research I too have found that the weak link is the transfer case. Many times the transfer cases break due to the fact that they had 150,000 mi+ on them. The people who had no problems (at the very least) rebuilt the transfer case with oem parts - if I remember correctly (I am also looking for aftermarket rebuild options). I have briefly researched a process called MPC - I think its similar to shotpeening just with a finer material making it much stronger than traditional shotpeening methods. The company is located in hunington beach, california -I think. I think it was Jaker who also had an aircraft welder weld the inside of a "weak link" gear to reinforce it. I am not an authority by any means I just read alot and this is a topic I what to clarify because Im building High horsepower RT4wd myself and want to do it right the first time. Hope this helps. Anyone please correct me if Im wrong.
  • GorillaRootzGorillaRootz Band Wagon
    kylerwho wrote:
    the transfer casing itself is not the strongest either since jaker broke his when experiencing wheel hop. i should be running 350-400 awd next spring so when things start breaking i will start posting. i have some hook ups with mfactory so it is possible we can get these weak links fixed.

    i plan on eventually eliminating my viscious coupler so it will be full time 4wd.


    what is your plan to do with all that power? (auto x, rally, DD)


    1)I am interested in a possible mfactory rebuilt transfer case - do you have any info - do they have kits or is it custom?
    2)Another question would be how do you eliminate the viscious coupler? What replaces it? I thought (from research) a full time 4wd conversion would create some serious understeer or oversteer problems? Please clarify. Thank you
  • kylerwhokylerwho Wagonist
    any kit from mfactory would have to be custom and will probably end up costing quite a bit more than most are willing to pay.

    read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscous_coupling_unit

    if the tranny casing was braced enough we could just eliminate the coupler and have direct 4wd full time. i would either add a spacer or do a one piece drive shaft.

    these are mostly future thoughts since right now im building the motor.
  • Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
    kylerwho wrote:
    any kit from mfactory would have to be custom and will probably end up costing quite a bit more than most are willing to pay.

    read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscous_coupling_unit

    if the tranny casing was braced enough we could just eliminate the coupler and have direct 4wd full time. i would either add a spacer or do a one piece drive shaft.

    these are mostly future thoughts since right now im building the motor.

    can you transfer that wiki link to english lol
    what do you mean about a spacer or one piece driveshaft?
  • R3ALTiM3gg88R3ALTiM3gg88 Wagonist
    GorillaRootz wrote:
    From my research I too have found that the weak link is the transfer case. Many times the transfer cases break due to the fact that they had 150,000 mi+ on them. The people who had no problems (at the very least) rebuilt the transfer case with oem parts - if I remember correctly (I am also looking for aftermarket rebuild options). I have briefly researched a process called MPC - I think its similar to shotpeening just with a finer material making it much stronger than traditional shotpeening methods. The company is located in hunington beach, california -I think. I think it was Jaker who also had an aircraft welder weld the inside of a "weak link" gear to reinforce it. I am not an authority by any means I just read alot and this is a topic I what to clarify because Im building High horsepower RT4wd myself and want to do it right the first time. Hope this helps. Anyone please correct me if Im wrong.

    I work in huntington beach do you know the name of the place, or contact #
  • Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
    So ive been doing a little more reading. so in a sence, i could remove the viscous coupler and replace it with a solid driveshaft so i would have all time 4wd. is the coupler the week point? so if i did that, and rebuilt the tranny with new oem parts it shouldnt have a problem holding up to some good power? correct me if im wrong
  • superhatchsuperhatch Moderator
    I haven't heard of any VC's breaking under load...it's all been sheared gears and broken transfer cases.

    I actually like the dual drive shaft and mounted VC setup. It allows for some travel in the shafts.
  • SiWagonSiWagon Council Member
    Just got back from the bone yard.Saw a A/T 4WD.Felt sorry for the guy that pulled the tranny to find out that the Transfer driven gear(last drive gear) was chipped in about 10 spots.Couldn't see the transfer drive gear.
  • Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
    so do tghey make harder gears? or if i bought all new ones could they be shot peened somewhere?
  • Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
    So i was reading that shot peening, depending on several factors , can increase strenght 0-1000% but wouldnt the surface of the gears be to pitted to Much to function properly?
  • GorillaRootzGorillaRootz Band Wagon
    R3ALTiM3gg88 wrote:
    GorillaRootz wrote:
    From my research I too have found that the weak link is the transfer case. Many times the transfer cases break due to the fact that they had 150,000 mi+ on them. The people who had no problems (at the very least) rebuilt the transfer case with oem parts - if I remember correctly (I am also looking for aftermarket rebuild options). I have briefly researched a process called MPC - I think its similar to shotpeening just with a finer material making it much stronger than traditional shotpeening methods. The company is located in hunington beach, california -I think. I think it was Jaker who also had an aircraft welder weld the inside of a "weak link" gear to reinforce it. I am not an authority by any means I just read alot and this is a topic I what to clarify because Im building High horsepower RT4wd myself and want to do it right the first time. Hope this helps. Anyone please correct me if Im wrong.

    I work in huntington beach do you know the name of the place, or contact #



    Sorry...The process is called WPC.

    MKS Engineering
    16631 Gemini Lane
    Huntington Beach, CA 92647
    Tel 1.714.848.3003
    www.mkseng.com
  • GorillaRootzGorillaRootz Band Wagon
    Merked98 wrote:
    so do tghey make harder gears? or if i bought all new ones could they be shot peened somewhere?


    Someone suggested mfactory but it would be custom - expensive....
  • kylerwhokylerwho Wagonist
    for stronger gears it would probably be cheapest to take it to a machine shop and have them billet a gear from 4340. that would be the best approach even though that would still cost a pretty penny.

    i think jaker has already covered the fact that the teg gears and other fwd d16 trans have a different size when compared to the rt4wd ring gear.
  • JakerJaker familEE
    I merely stated that FWD D series gears won't fit the shafts in the 4WD transmission because the diameters of the 4WD gears/bearings/synchros are larger than the other D series parts, and the shafts from the FWD D series won't fit the 4WD case/guts because the 4WD shafts are much longer.

    I have not had the chance yet to see if B series gears will fit the 4WD shaft/bearings/synchros, and if they don't I think the ones from the D16A1 (1986-1989 Integra) might.
  • Merked98Merked98 Wagonist
    well i think im guna go the shot peening route. i know thats all i have been mentioning but i have been readin up on it and companys that do it. if i were to ship off some gears. which ones are most prone to exploding? should i send all of them off? should i buy new ones and do those or do the used ones? thanks
  • kylerwhokylerwho Wagonist
    buy new ones and send them off for the shot peening. that way you will have an extra set incase something doesnt work out.
  • JakerJaker familEE
    I have 3-4 sets of the transfer case gears (beveled gears) and every one of them has some sort of flaw in the face of the gear. They appear to be little voids in the casting where the mold wasn't quite filled properly, and when the face of the gear tooth was machined/polished, the void remained. I am currently using the best of my various sets of gears, but suspect that buying new (if you can find them new) will be a bit of a crap shoot.
  • JL56TCJL56TC New Wagonist
    hmm where to start.... first off in my DIFF SHATTER post we talked about how the VC was not the problem in fact it was the bevel gears. I have been running turbo all summer and i havent had a problem yet... but remember my trans and everything is brand new. I know that once you get up into the 290hp range that the shaft and VC and bevel gears are rated for about 280... so that should give you a clue. I bought a fresh set of bevel gears and they went in about 2 months with a built D never had it dynoed but I would be willing to guess I was up over 200. I still think the best bet is to cryo freeze,, but I may be wrong
  • R3ALTiM3gg88R3ALTiM3gg88 Wagonist
    GorillaRootz wrote:
    R3ALTiM3gg88 wrote:
    GorillaRootz wrote:
    From my research I too have found that the weak link is the transfer case. Many times the transfer cases break due to the fact that they had 150,000 mi+ on them. The people who had no problems (at the very least) rebuilt the transfer case with oem parts - if I remember correctly (I am also looking for aftermarket rebuild options). I have briefly researched a process called MPC - I think its similar to shotpeening just with a finer material making it much stronger than traditional shotpeening methods. The company is located in hunington beach, california -I think. I think it was Jaker who also had an aircraft welder weld the inside of a "weak link" gear to reinforce it. I am not an authority by any means I just read alot and this is a topic I what to clarify because Im building High horsepower RT4wd myself and want to do it right the first time. Hope this helps. Anyone please correct me if Im wrong.

    I work in huntington beach do you know the name of the place, or contact #



    Sorry...The process is called WPC.

    MKS Engineering
    16631 Gemini Lane
    Huntington Beach, CA 92647
    Tel 1.714.848.3003
    http://www.mkseng.com

    thanx for the info
  • kylerwhokylerwho Wagonist
    wonder what it would take and cost to just have a set of straight gears cut? 4wd dog box anyone?
  • JL56TCJL56TC New Wagonist
    kylerwho wrote:
    wonder what it would take and cost to just have a set of straight gears cut? 4wd dog box anyone?

    Rotfl :lol:
  • JakerJaker familEE
    Yes please.
  • kylerwhokylerwho Wagonist
    you done the research on having that done jaker?
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