(EE/EY/EF) Suspension questions

alupso1

From what I’ve read so far, in order to lower the wagon it is recommended to use shocks made for an EF hatch or CRX with the stock hatch/CRX springs? If you do use the stock EF springs how much would it lower the car? I have the stock springs from an 1989 Civic LX, would these work ok or should I look for some hatch/CRX springs?

My wagon is an 88 with the weird LCA and all my other Honda are 89+ so I would need to purchase new shocks. I was looking on eBay and noticed you can get a set of KYB GR-2 shocks for $160 shipped. Would these shocks be suitable for the wagon since technically I’m not lowering it and just using the stock EF springs? Since the GR-2 shocks are suppose to be basically stock replacement shocks and I will be using stock springs, will the ride be any different? I’m just hoping that it won’t be bouncy.


You should really make this a sticky at the top of the page and maybe get someone to re-write/update it.

http://p196.ezboard.com/fhondacivicwago ... D=36.topic

duckie8310

is your goal to lower the wagon or not?

if you are, use springs from a hatch/crx, and lowering springs, not stock. the gr-2s aren't technically stock replacement, they are a bit on the performance side, but nothing to go auto-x in. so your ride with be a bit stiffer than stock. it's recommended to use cut DA springs, in order to compensate for the extra wagon weight, or just lowering hatch/crx springs.

and if you aren't, then just buy stock replacements from any online parts store, like majestichonda or elsewhere.

and we have this discussion ALL the time. we should really compile it all into one thread. i would swear it was stickied somewhere around here. new comers seem to always ask this question without searching much. im surprised you found that link

P, there anyway to put this discussion to rest? im sure we all can contribute to one large post of information

alupso1

duckie8310 wrote:

if you are, use springs from a hatch/crx, and lowering springs, not stock. the gr-2s aren't technically stock replacement, they are a bit on the performance side, but nothing to go auto-x in. so your ride with be a bit stiffer than stock. it's recommended to use cut DA springs, in order to compensate for the extra wagon weight, or just lowering hatch/crx springs.

Yes, pretty much all I'm looking to do is lower the car.

Did you mean to say use shocks from a hatch/crx and lowering springs to lower the car? If you did, would the drop be the same if I they were to be used on a wagon? I have a set of Tein S springs with a 1.4frt and a 1.5rr drop. Would these be a good choice or should I look for something stiffer?

From what I've read the KYB GR-2 shocks are more of a stock replacement shock and really isn't suited for any kind of lowering, that's just what I've read. If I had to use lowering springs then I guess I would have to look around for some better shocks.

duckie8310

if you look in junk yards with mass amounts of fixed up cars, you'll see many cars that have gr-2s along with lowering springs. so those will suit you well if you're not gonna go do any auto-x. and yes, use hatch/crx shocks with hatch/crx springs. the drop will be about the same, but dont use sedan springs, stick with hatch/crx components when it comes to suspension. seldom will you look to DA for parts. if you want stiff, then look into what you want. it's really personal preference.

alupso1

duckie8310 wrote:

if you look in junk yards with mass amounts of fixed up cars, you'll see many cars that have gr-2s along with lowering springs. so those will suit you well if you're not gonna go do any auto-x. and yes, use hatch/crx shocks with hatch/crx springs. the drop will be about the same, but dont use sedan springs, stick with hatch/crx components when it comes to suspension. seldom will you look to DA for parts. if you want stiff, then look into what you want. it's really personal preference.

Ok cool, so for just lowered look and not slammed to ground look which springs should I use with the GR-2 shocks, the Teins or some CRX stock springs? I have both.

duckie8310

are the Teins for the hatch/crx? if so, then those would be a good drop. im not sure if the stock crx springs will do anything. and if they do, im not sure what.

SiWagon

clsmooth wrote a good article,but unfortunately it was poorly written.Some1 should rewrite it.

Bottom Line:Its all about the rear shx.You can only lower it to your specs in your case with the Tiens & rear shx out of any '88 Civic(CRX,HB or Sdn).
EXECEPTION:If u change the rear LCA to a '89-'91('96 in other countries)LCA,then you can use 89-91/'96 rear shx.Your CRX (OEM) springs will NOT work.

alupso1

SiWagon wrote:

clsmooth wrote a good article,but unfortunately it was poorly written.Some1 should rewrite it.

Bottom Line:Its all about the rear shx.You can only lower it to your specs in your case with the Tiens & rear shx out of any '88 Civic(CRX,HB or Sdn).
EXECEPTION:If u change the rear LCA to a '89-'91('96 in other countries)LCA,then you can use 89-91/'96 rear shx.Your CRX (OEM) springs will NOT work.

Ah ok. The Teins I bought said they were for a Civic/CRX, I had them on the sedan but it should be the same for the hatch/crx.

I probably won't change out the LCA and just get the GR-2 shocks for the 88 and use the Teins and see what it looks like.

Thanks for all the help and patients

hondarcb

Try to post some pics with the S techs when you get them on. Ive been thinking about them for my wagon. Had them on an Integra I had and loved the drop/ride.

alupso1

hondarcb wrote:

Try to post some pics with the S techs when you get them on. Ive been thinking about them for my wagon. Had them on an Integra I had and loved the drop/ride.

I'm not sure if I'm still going to use them. I had some old coil overs laying around and put them on the wagon and I really liked the drop I was able to achieve with them. I was thinking about swapping out the LCA's for some 89-91 ones, get some KYB GR-2 shocks and then some new coil overs.

I still might try the Tein springs with the GR-2 shocks just to see how it looks and rides.

doitdub

alupso1 wrote:

You should really make this a sticky at the top of the page and maybe get someone to re-write/update it.

http://p196.ezboard.com/fhondacivicwago ... D=36.topic

This should be stickied. Some of the pictures are dead, and I would assume some of the info is outdated, but would probably help. Copied from the above link....

So you wanna lower your Wagon with aftermarket suspension? ** EF = 88 – 91 Civic/CRX **
** DA = 90 – 93 Integra **

So you want to lower your 88 – 91 Wagon? Here’s pretty much everything you need to know and why…

First off, yes, Wagon suspension is different, and no, no one really makes anything intended for a Wagon either. So what do you do? These are recommendations from other Wagon owner’s that are based on experience. You’re always more then welcome to try something new, but I’ve noticed most of us have pretty much tried it all (I know I have ) and have found what works. This is for both performance and looks and either FWD and 4WD.

Shocks: EF recommended, and use shocks that match the year of your Wagon.

To get everything clear in your head, keep in mind that the front shocks are the same as other EF’s. So let’s concentrate on the rear. Rear Wagon shocks are different. The spring perch (the platform on the shock the spring sits on) is about 2” lower down the shock vs other EF rear shocks. So re-using Wagon shocks with lowering springs will absolutely slam the rear of you Wagon down. If this is what you want to go for, that’s fine, but your rear control arms will be picking up all the rocks off the road cause you’ll be about 1” off the ground, even with a sport drop! :eek Using regular EF shocks brings the rear back up level with the front. When you go to change your rear suspension out, you’ll notice that the Wagon’s rear springs makes up for the 2” lower spring perch by being about 2” taller, so the overall height of the shock is the same as other EF’s.



* I think Honda did this in Wagon’s cause they were anticipating people really loading up the rear with stuff, so the lower springs perch (and therefore taller spring) was went to somehow compensate for the car when it was loaded, so that it may be still drivable and comfortable. Anyway… *

DA shocks are not recommended for a similar reason. The rear of a DA is shaped different, and uses taller shocks from factory, so it’s be difficult trying to stuff a taller shock into a shorter space. I don’t think it’d fit, but if you managed to, there might be so little shock travel, that you’d have a better chance of bottoming out.

Springs: DA recommended.

Once again, to set everything straight in your mind, the front springs are the same (in height), however the rear are a little different. DA springs, if you were to measure them, have the same dimensions as EF ones (height, diameter, etc.). So why use them over EF springs? Because manufactures make EF springs with the EF CRX and HB in mind, a car lighter then a Wagon, by about 200 – 300 lbs. Just carry 2 passengers in you car, and you’ll notice the difference in the way your car acts. Because of this, EF springs aren’t designed for the weight and length of a Wagon. As a result the car bottoms out on the shocks easier, especially in the front, we’ve noticed. DA springs are designed for a car that’s 200 – 300 lbs HEAVIER then a Wagon. Actually, I think that number is actually closer to the 400 lbs mark. So when DA springs are in a Wagon, they must think the car is as light as a feather in comparison to what they were designed for.

The one thing with these springs however, relates back to the fact of the taller shocks in the rear of a DA. Taller shocks require taller springs. So putting DA springs straight into a Wagon will leave the rear sitting high, almost as if you didn’t even lower it at all. I’m sure there’s some of us here that have experienced this before! So cutting 2 – 3 dead coils off the top of the rear springs levels out the Wagon very cleanly. Some might say these springs make the right too stiff, but I’ll personally trade that off any day over having things bottom out over the littlest cracks in the road.

There is however, one brand of spring, made by a company called AERO in Japan, that bolts into a Wagon using Wagon shocks. However they’re very pricey, Y41000, and then there’s shipping on top of that. And your still stuck with OEM shocks anyway.



Adjustable suspensions: EF recommended.

Whether it be a coil-over kit, hydraulics or an air-ride system, use cylinder/shock components intended for an EF. Because these will bolt in and ride height is either a turn of a thread away or at the touch of a button.

Even using EF coil-over’s in a Wagon will do just fine, because these are more then likely serious, competitive kits that are made to stand up to conditions never seen just driving around. If you’re really hardcore, or worried, you can use coil-over’s intended for a DA. Once again, height is not a problem, just crank the threaded spring perches to where you want them. Stiffness shouldn’t be a problem, because the shock-part of the kit should be adjustable as well. Why not we all use coil-over’s then? Cause they’re double to triple the price. :x

Sway bars: EF recommended.

You can use an EF aftermarket sway bar for the front cause the length is the same and the end links line up with the mounting points in the front lower control arms. All Wagons come with OEM front sway bars, so all mounting points are already there. Only catch is, the floor is shaped a bit different in that area on a Wagon, so snaking the sway bar through is incredibly tricky, especially if you don’t have access to a hoist. You may find yourself having to remove the cat from your exhaust and dropping your shift linkage just to get it through. Otherwise it’s a straight re & re of the sway bar, just keep in mind you may have to use the end-links and frame bushings and brackets intended for the sway bar, but then again, those components should come with the sway bar from the manufacturer.

For the rear, it’s nothing short of custom! :thumbup Wagons not only did not come with rear sway bar’s, but if you lied down under the rear of you Wagon, you would notice that Honda never intended to even try and mount a rear sway bar! o'd Like many mods that are down to a Wagon, here just another one that’s custom! :b eerchug It’s totally worth it to do this mod, cause it makes the car handle DRASTICALLY better! It’s makes the car feel like you just spent all your money on the most high-end coil-over system! By all means is this mod worth every minute of effort! :^^

First and foremost, you need to acquire some parts. First, you’ll need a pair of rear lower control arms out of an EF Si. Why? Cause the Wagon rear control arms are the same as base model EF arms and have no threaded hole to mount the end-link too. I’ve heard stories of people drilling holes and just using a nut and bolt, but no matter how tight you tighten this, because of the stress a sway bar’s under, they always seem to come loose. A trip to the wrecker will get you a pair of this for an affordable price. Keep in mind to get a pair out of an EF Si that matches the year of your Wagon.

Second, you need a sway bar! For those that have custom mounted a rear sway bar already, many suggest using an OEM sway bar from another Honda/Acura. Good ones to use are from either an EF Si or DA. They’re both 15mm sway bars and are of the right length, so the end-links already line up with the fitting in the controls arms. The only other issue from here on out is mounting the bar to the frame. Custom brackets have to be use regardless. The only obstacle is finding a location that you can rig a bracket to and clear other components such as the exhaust or rear diff, if you have one. Really, there’s no wrong way to mount it cause a rear sway bar was never meant to be on these cars, so just being able to have one is great, anyway you fit it.

Reason why OEM rear sway bars are recommended is because, since there’s nothing out there for a Wagon, there’s nothing ‘tuned’ to work with it. Aftermarket sway bar manufacturers, like the ones for springs, make these sway bars with the weight and length of an EF CRX or HB. When putting these sway bar is a longer car the they’re intended for, the effect is amplified. So much so, that an aftermarket one is too stiff for the rear and there’s been stories of the rear end just fish-tailing like crazy. An OEM one is still ‘soft’ enough that you can keep the car under control. The most extreme you can go, really is maybe an OEM Integra Type R rear sway bar, which I believe is 19mm. Even with this bar you might be pushing closer to the limits before it breaks free.

Upper Strut Bars: EF recommended.

A front strut bar for an EF mounts right in and clears engine components under the hood cause other EF’s have the same powerplants. If you have an engine swap, it’s still no big deal cause these bars are so abundant that you could go to your local speed shop and grab a few to see what fits. A shop with good customer service (and that wants your money!) shouldn’t have a problem with this and even help you out with it.

Same for the rear. Just pop those 2 rear access panels in the back to get to the top of your shocks.

One thing I noticed about strut bars is that they make more of a noticeable differences in cars that have been in accidents. I’ve also talked to EF owner’s who have cornered so hard that the lack of a strut bar (in the front anyway) cause their windshield to crack! :eek

Lower Tie Bars/Braces: EF recommended.

These components have the same idea behind them as strut bars, only the mount underneath the car. A front, lower brace is good to add to the car, cause it’s like adding frame. If you jack up the front of your car and crawl under, these braces are kinda ‘H’ –shaped and mount to various points under the car, yet still clear things like your oil pan and such. However I’ve never really come across a brand immediately available for an EF. All I’ve really seen is people taking one intended for a 92 – 95 Civic and modifying that to fit their EF’s.

There are lower, rear tie bar’s available for EF’s, but Wagons come with one from factory in a sense! :rockin A rear, lower tie bar on other EF’s is a bar you mount to the inner mounting points of the lower control arms. So you can sorta ‘connect’ the 2 control arms, so to speak. However, Wagon’s already have this massive brace in the rear that’s used to hold up the rear diff. Even FWD ones have these! (I guess Honda built both FWD and 4WD models as similar as possible to keep production costs down). It’s that part in the back behind the muffler that swoops down. You’re actually able to unbolt this piece, so in a sense, it’s just a massive rear tie bar that dwarfs any of the aftermarket ones anyway Even though a rear, lower tie bar is the same width, and ‘looks’ like it will mount on, it won’t because this factory rear brace has a curve to it, it’s not straight across. Basically, there’s metal in the way, so you can’t connect the dots with a straight line.

Bushings: EF recommended.

You can pretty much use any aftermarket bushing(s) intended for an EF. Same locations, same diameter, everything. You could go out and get a complete kit for an EF, and use every last piece in a Wagon. :hat

Well, that’s pretty much all the suspension info. Feel free to ad anything I may have missed or your own experience with suspension.

:joegt4


** Added April 07/05. **

Custom Springs:

There's nothing wrong with the idea of custom springs. If you can get them done cheap enough, then you mostly likely got a good deal. However, the problem then lies with the shocks. If you get custom springs make for Wagon shocks, then you'll always be limited to the performance of OEM shocks. (To date, there are still no performance/aftermarket replacement shocks specifically for a Wagon.) Especially if they're the original ones on the car. Lowering springs of almost any kind have the potential of blowing out stock shocks as well.

949

very good info! straight to the point. it answered questions i was thinking of as i was reading this.

only thing i would have liked to see.

pics of what you were talking about so it would be even more clearer for novices.

ZLITES

Nice write up. Very helpful. Now to the local pick n' pull I go

ThinkFab

i have front coil-overs for a 94 teg. will they work?

ThinkFab

well, i was to ansie to wait for a reply, so i decided to see if it was gunna work. the bottoms of the coilovers were slightly to big of a diameter, so i took the gronder to them and shaved off about 3/32's" off them all the way around, and put them on. i have them about 1" from the lowest they will go, and i have about 1 1/2" of clearance between my tires and the fender. soon to do the rears, as it has a rediculous amount of rake(looks like a muscle car). :P

mini

Putting together a set of photos and "stock parts" list for a clean swaybar installation...........just finishing the bar end links.

ZLITES

Just to let everyone know, I was one prostreetonline.com and found Tokico Illumnia shocks with Tien lower springs. 1.5 front drop w/1.4 rear drop. Made for 88-91 civic wagons/wagovans

stephen

i was able to follow the write up fairly well. but as a noob i really agree with the request for some pics. maybe some of the veterans could post replies to this thread with a pic of their car and list their setup? i think seeing would really help people in choosing a route to take.

ricefighter

hi does anyone knows what camber kit is good for 88 rt4wd. im planning to lower not slam my 88 rt4wd. thanks

evol911

camber is ok its toe that you don't want. some negative camber will help during cornering.

ragenasian

For all of those who KEEP ASKING THIS QUESTION :evil:

YES CRX/CIVIC COILOVERS WILL FIT

Just make sure your LCAs fit the coilover you buy

PLEASE stop starting new threads asking this SAME EXACT QUESTION

Eagle Beagle

Oh boy, i'm in the netherlands and i can hear him ...

he ... germany ...

shhhht...there...under his nick

Revmaynard

Didn't want to make a new thread, but throw me some opinions. I have skunk2 sport shocks with skunk2 sleeves and springs. Could I potentially use DA springs without cutting them with the shocks and sleeves to lower the rear? It's pretty bouncy and the springs are what cause that, not the shocks, correct?

Revmaynard

Anyone?

stephen

NJ1 and i with both vouch that shocks can be bouncy. we both have stock rears and tokico fronts and i know mine bounces a lot, and he has said the same. i want to put tokico rears on to stiffen it up a bit.

NJCIVICWAGON1

stephen wrote:

NJ1 and i with both vouch that shocks can be bouncy. we both have stock rears and tokico fronts and i know mine bounces a lot, and he has said the same. i want to put tokico rears on to stiffen it up a bit.

Keep in mind that I have Tokico Illumina's in the rear but with my GC coilovers all the way down I still had a slight gap between the wheel and body.
I only opt to do wagon rear shocks to give me the extra 1/2 inch drop in the rear that I needed. I just wanted to tuck a lil tire.

Revmaynard

Yea, my car doesnt level well enough in my opinion. If rear shocks would do it I'd be down for it. There are some off a RT at the junkyard I'll get if so.

stephen

i actually want to pull my rear shocks and put some tokicos on the back. i will have to raise it a bit to level it but i will probably do that so that the handling will improve.....

Revmaynard

I wouldn't mind raising mine a little, but I don't want gay amounts of rear wheel gap.

stephen

agreed. no ghey wheel gap for me either. but i do want my suspension to have a little more travel, and my car to not scrape EVERYWHERE i go.

judebert

My newbie, uneducated, probably incorrect understanding is this:

Shocks do not contribute to your load capacity or ride height. Their sole purpose is to dampen oscillation (prevent bouncing). [list:3urnmrg9]Of course, you've got to use bigger shocks for bigger loads; otherwise they couldn't handle the force. But putting more powerful same-size shocks on a car doesn't change its load capacity or its ride height.

[/list:u:3urnmrg9]

Springs are what actually support your car; they determine your actual ride height. [list:3urnmrg9]One of the spring mounts is on the shocks, so the placement of that mount can effect your ride height, of course.

[/list:u:3urnmrg9]
In fact, I understand the big problem with using DA shocks is that, although they are powerful enough to support our Wagons, their spring perch is much higher, meaning you'd have to use shorter springs or cut the DA springs to match.

Anyway, if you're having bouncing problems, it's probably because your shocks are busted, your shocks are not powerful enough to resist your springs, or your shocks are compressed/extended outside of their functional operating range.

From my VW days, I remember we would check the shocks by standing on the bumper, jumping up and down until the car was moving, and jumping off. If the bumper went up, slightly down, and settled, the shocks were "good". If it went up more than once, the shocks were shot.